TGP Presents...The Various Top 20

[thegeneralpublic]

I'd like to see if I can create a list of Magic top 20s for various categories. Don't ask me why, I don't know. I was just wondering if people would be interested in helping me with it. I have a couple of ideas for categories...

Best of each color, artifact, multi, land.
Best of each type.
Best cards for multiplayer
Best stall cards
Best beasties
Best burn
Best removal
Best countermagic
Top cards overall
Wackiest abilities
Most chaotic card

and maybe some non-opinionated ones, like Highest Cost

etc., etc., etc. Thoughts?

[Twinkee]

sounds cool, and write an article for each one category :P.

[thegeneralpublic]

I'll consider that if I can get some input.

May as well start from the top.

THE TOP 20 WHITE CARDS

Ideas:

Swords to Plowshares

[lionden_56]

Best Countermagic:
[list]1. Force of Will
2. Counterspell
3. Force Spike
4. Mana Leak
5. Circular Logic (in the right deck at least)
6. Last Word (I reall wish this didn't cost 4.)
7. Rewind
8. Rites of Refusal
9. Mystic Snake
10. Dissipate
11. Absorb[list]
Let the debate begin :wink: There's probably a lot of stuff I forgot, so be kind.

Edit: I started writing this before TGP posted above me. Sorry for going out of order.

[thegeneralpublic]

I don't care. Let's do countermagic first then!

Now, the debate.

First thing, Force Spike does not deserve to be that high. Granted, it is decent when your opponent is tapped out, but Mana Leak is much better, especially considering it's type two status. I think Rewind should also be higher and Last Word lower because, though good, it's too expensive for good use. Circular Logic is too limited.

Also, whatabout unorthodox counterspells such as Time Stop?

1. Force of Will
2. Counterspell
3. Mana Leak
4. Rewind
5. Time Stop
6. Last Word

EDIT: A convenient list of all counterspells with "counter" in their text. ('http://gatherer.wizards.com/?first=1&last=100&term=counter+target&Field_Name=on&Field_Rules=on&Field_Type=on&setfilter=Allsets&colorfilter=All&typefilter=All&output=spoiler&sort=name')

Also: Spiketail Drake. Mana Leak on a stick with a 3/3 Flier? anyday!

[Twinkee]

1 Force of will
2 Mana drain
3 Counterspell
4 Mana leak
5 Force Spike

Those would be my top 5. They are pretty much the least conditional spells and have a direct use.

6. Forbid
7. Hinder
8. Rewind
9. Dissipate
10. Last word

I didn't include stuff like circular logic because it's just too conditional. In the right decks it can be great, but I believe good counterspells needs versatility rather than dependency. The order I had the counterspells is by the Casting cost order pretty much since playing blue is rather expensive and everything... 4cc spells just gets too costly until late game, in my opinion.

Twink

[Neuromancer]

Originally posted by lionden_56
Best Countermagic:
[list]1. Force of Will
2. Mana Drain
3. Counterspell
4. Mana Leak
5. Force Spike
6. Forbid
7. Dissipate
8. Rewind
9. Last Word (I reall wish this didn't cost 4.)
10. Mystic Snake /Absorb /Undermine
11. Suffocating Blast[list]
12. Rites of Refusal.

Fixed.

[Einsteinmonkey]

Originally posted by Twinkee
1 Force of will
2 Mana drain
3 Counterspell
4 Mana leak
5 Force Spike

Those would be my top 5. They are pretty much the least conditional spells and have a direct use.

6. Forbid
7. Hinder
8. Rewind
9. Dissipate
10. Last word

I didn't include stuff like circular logic because it's just too conditional. In the right decks it can be great, but I believe good counterspells needs versatility rather than dependency. The order I had the counterspells is by the Casting cost order pretty much since playing blue is rather expensive and everything... 4cc spells just gets too costly until late game, in my opinion.

Twink
Surely Dismiss ranks up there?

[Streetz]

Originally posted by thegeneralpublic
I'll consider that if I can get some input.

May as well start from the top.

THE TOP 20 WHITE CARDS

Ideas:

Swords to Plowshares

Wrath of God
Armageddon
Balance
Cataclysm
White Knight
Enlightened Tutor
Serra Angel
Orim's Chant

Not in any order of course. Just my first thoughts on the subject.

[Syphon]

Akroma's Vengeance with white? Or maybe the white Karona sorcery from Scourge?

[Mad Mat]

Counter:

1) Force of Will
2) Mana Drain
3) Counterspell
4) Mana Leak
5) Circular Logic
6) Stifle (well it does counter)
7) Red Elemental Blast
8) Blue Elemental Blast
9) Force Spike
10) Rewind

White:

1) Balance
2) Swords to Plowshares
3) Land Tax
4) Replenish
5) Wrath of God
6) Exalted Angel
7) Orim's Chant
8) Armageddon
9) Enlightened Tutor
10) Akroma

(The order might be a bit off)

Blue:

1) Ancestral Recall
2) Time Walk
3) Force of Will
4) Mana Drain
5) Morphling
6) Intuition
7) Time Spiral
8) Counterspell
9) Brainstorm
10) Cunning Wish

(Order may be yet off)

Black:

1) Yawgmoth's Will
2) Demonic Tutor
3) Vampiric Tutor
4) Mind Twist
5) Necropotence
6) Entomb
7) Duress
8) Demonic Consultation
9) Dark Ritual
10) Reanimate

Maybe: Hypnotic Specter, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Hymn to Tourach, Disciple of the Vault, Sinkhole, Planar Void, Cabal Therapy,

Red:

1) Wheel of Fortune
...
I can't really make a top here, but possible: goblin welder, goblin lackey, goblin ringleader, worldgorger dragon, fork, falling star, squee, lightning bolt, mogg fanatic

Green:

Aluren, birds of paradise, oath of druids, fastbond, survival of the fittest, channel, eternal witness, gaea's blessing, elvish spirit guide, crop rotation, wild mongrel, rancor

Gold:

1) Psychatog
2) Meddling Mage
3) Pernicious Deed
4) Spiritmonger
5) Vindicate
6) Lightning Helix
7) Putrefy
8) Terminate
9) Glimpse the Unthinkable
10) Sliver Queen

(Note: not the right order, though 'tog is obviously first)

Artifact:

1) Black Lotus
2) -> 6) 5 A moxen
7) Memory Jar
8) Mana Crypt
9) Skullclamp
10) Crucible of Worlds

Somewhere in there too: Null Rod, Masticore, Black Vise, Sol Ring,

Lands:

1) Strip Mine
2) Library of Alexandria
3) Bazaar of Baghdad
4) Tolarian Academy
5) Wasteland
6) Mishra's Workshop
7) Mishra's Factory
8) Faerie Conclave
9) Gaea's Cradle
10) Rishadan Port

I won't include duals in here, just to get some spot. This includes duals, fetch, pain, shock...

Creatures:

1) Morphling
2) Psychatog
3) Masticore
4) Goblin Lackey
5) Birds of Paradise
6) Akroma
7) Exalted Angel
8) Hypnotic Specter
9) ...
10) ...

Discard:

1) Mind Twist
2) Duress
3) Hymn to Tourach
4) Cabal Therapy
5) Hypnotic Specter
6) Stupor
7) Distress
8) Funeral Charm
9) Mind Sludge
10) Persecute

[Neuromancer]

No love for Goblin Welder? He's considered the best creature in the game by most Vintage players, and :agree: with them.

[Mad Mat]

Originally posted by Neuromancer
No love for Goblin Welder? He's considered the best creature in the game by most Vintage players, and :agree: with them.
You know how much creatures there are? Welder is obviously a contender in the creature top 10, but I think currently 'tog and morphling are the best. third is a tie between 'core and welder though.

Side note: I kinda hate that smilie with the sunglasses now :?

[UyOwned]

as for counterspells... are foil or daze any good?

does gifts ungiven deserve a spot on the blue top 10?

as for multicolor, why glimpse the unthinkable and sliver queen? they seem pretty weak, cards like lozodon hierarch and grave-shell scarab are probably better.

those are all my thoughts for now...