Combo vs. Synergy - General Discussion.

[Ryuzaki]

If you want to discuss what is combo and what is synergy, do it here. Do not do it in the combo threads. Thanks.


I would have to disagree with you death by aggro, my combo is a combo.

No, it isn't. It's synergy.

Vesuvan Shapeshifter + Brine Elemental = Combo

Augury Adept + Shimmering Wings = Synergy

See the difference? Synergy is smart, Combos need to be 'pulled off'.

[Tynion]

According to Ryu, all of these are synergy. Along with Island + Counterspell.

Augury Adept + an enchantment that makes it hit people and get you cards and life is a combo. A combo means... a combination. It does not mean two or more cards that win you the game. I don't know where you got the impression that a combo has to be a specific thing or meet a set criteria of combo-ness.

I mean, if you are saying cards that happen to work well together is synergy, then would you say that Arcanis + Abundance is synergy and not a devastating combo? I mean, it just so happens that they work extremely well together, and it just so happens that they work extremely well seperately. So why don't you lay out the rules and guidelines of synergy and for combos?

[Arix]

Yeah...creature + creature enhancer has never really been called a combo.

[mew77]

I know but I just wanted to bring that up. Synergy is not bad you know.

And hey doing 10 damage in a single swing while gaining 30 life in the process has to count for something right?

[Tynion]

Your all right, synergy is not bad, I am just pointing out that according to Ryu, the synergy stuff should not be here since it is not a combo, and I think that they should be here.

As to synergy, I don't think you can have synergy without it being a combo, so truthfully, I think synergy is a sub-combo... As if you had only one piece, you would not have the nasty-ness of the full compliment of pieces.

Is Spirit Loop + Everstrike a combo or synergy?

[hope this doesn't ruin the thread, I just wanted to get clarity of what is synergy or combo]

[Arix]

In my eyes:

Synergy = Each piece just doing what they do, they just so happen to do it well together.

Combo = Greater than the sum of its parts. Each piece is doing what it's supposed to do, but they combine to do something unexpected and cool.

So, for example, Divinity of Pride and Battlegrace Angel are synergy, since they're really each just doing what they're meant to be doing - Divinity swinging and gaining life, with Angel enhancing it and letting you gain life. Which is cool, but really, it's just each card doing what it was made to do. On the other hand, a combo like, say, Pentavus + Dross Scorpion + Gilded Lotus lets each card work together to produce something greater than what each card can do individually.

Or, you can think of it this way: With synergy, one or more of the cards can easily be replaced (in the Divinity/Battlegrace example above, Divinity can be replaced with any beefy creature), whereas with a combo, the cards need to be specific, or at least very difficult to find a replacement for (Pentavus/Scorpion/Lotus combo above).

[Ryuzaki]

I didn't mean it in a, "It shouldn't be here" even though we call it a "combo thread", but for the record he was calling it synergy, when I would not.

Actually I was trying to find the words for describing synergy. I think you got it Tyn, it's sub-combo, still good but not a full combo.

[Tynion]

New Term for the win! Woot! We need a Sub-Combo Forum now :P

[Your Worst Nightmare]

I mean, if you are saying cards that happen to work well together is synergy, then would you say that Arcanis + Abundance is synergy and not a devastating combo? I mean, it just so happens that they work extremely well together, and it just so happens that they work extremely well seperately. So why don't you lay out the rules and guidelines of synergy and for combos?
In this specific case, no it is not a combo. It is mere synergy. You are not getting anything out of the ordinary by combining those two cards. Arcanis taps to draw three cards. Abundance allows you to choose which type of card you draw. The two together don't translate to anything more than the two effects combined, nothing extraordinary comes out of it other than what is already expected.

Just because it is a powerful effect, it doesn't mean it's a combo. Dark Ritual + Hypnotic Specter or Phyrexian Negator is perhaps just as powerful and is not a combo either. The difference between a synergy and a combo lies not in the fact that it wins you the game (infinite life combos don't win you the game per se, yet they're combos nonetheless) or that it can go infinite (Winter Orb + Icy Manipulator isn't infinite, but is a combo nonetheless); but the fact that in a combo the two (or more) cards together do more than the sum of their individual pieces by themselves.

Giving an evasion ability to a creature with an ability that triggers upon damaging opponents (like, for reference's sake, Dimir Cutpurse + Flight of Fancy) is in no way a combo. When you look at the card, it's the most obvious use for said card! Dimir Cutpurse doesn't get any more special by being enchanted by Flight of Fancy than by simply Flight; and Flight of Fancy doesn't draw any more cards by enchanting Dimir Cutpurse than it would enchanting any other creature, either with "whenever this deals damage to an opponent"-like abilities or without.

That can't be the case when you want to call something a combo. A combo means that each piece of the combo beneficts by having the other piece there. For example, Restore Balance + Greater Gargadon. By Greater Gargadon simply being there, Restore Balance's effect itself gets better (by sacrificing your permanents to the Gargadon, you are able to remove more permanents from your opponent's side of the field); and the Gargadon itself also gets better by Restore Balance being there, as it gives a greater purpose to the permanents you sacrificed to bring him into play in the first place, AND thanks to that same Restore Balance is less likely to be chumpblocked when it finnaly enters play. The two together do more than the sum of the two would do separately. THAT is what I believe to be the difference between a combo and a synergy.

But if you ask "Then where is the line separating the two, heh? Is Greater Harvester + Rancor a combo or synergy, after all? Rabble rabble rabble!" I ask in return "Is dawn/dusk night or day, after all?" Then apply the answer to that to your own question. Thank you very much, have a nice day.

[immotalas]

So is (Niv-Mizzet + Ophidian Eye) a combo?
[Creature + Creature Enhancer]

[immotalas]

Disregard that, I suck Tarmogoyfs.

[ThunderHog]

IMO, 'combos' end games by themselves. 'Synergy' HELPS significantly in winning the game and/or are a combination of cards that greatly enhance one another.

Niv-Mizzet + Eye = Combo as those two cards together is a win in most cases

Evershriek + Spirit Link/Loop = Synergy

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Using my own logic, Arcane Denial + Isochron Scepter with a Counterspell is synergy. It doesn't completely end a game, but it IS a nasty lock-down. Same thing goes for Isochron Scepter with Orim's Chant. While deadly, it doesn't end a game by itself.

The four 'Stations' of Fifth Dawn, when combined together, are a combo.

Get it?

[death by aggro]

... Uh, OK... well, the answer was "yes, it's a combo" anyway:paranoid:.

Edit: HOLY MOTHER OF KARN I JUST GOT NINJA'D BY A HOG!!!

**shoots self**

[Aladdin]

I'm surprised nobody posted this yet:


Synergy: 1. The interaction of two or more agents or forces so that their combined effect is greater than the sum of their individual effects.

Thus... :paranoid:
Anyway you look at it, a combo requires synergy... :paranoid:
A synergy needs a combination of different parts... :paranoid:

Can we not say both terms relate exactly to the same thing? (Fools' debate...)
"Hold on! We're talking about MTG here, actual words meaning don't hold value here!" (Ironic :P) If you really want to differentiate synergy from combination, well... I guess that the game-ending definition of ThunderHog is the way to go...
Still, really, they're both the same thing...
Even, "Combination" doesn't imply a greater sum than the individual effects but only the interaction so... Synergy may be actually better :P

[Michael_Zeora]

Personally - (BTW - I gave Ryu that combo as an example) - I consider Combo to do more than the individual parts - in the case of Vesuvan Shapeshifter + Brine Elemental it's a simple combo - but not game-winning, although it helps achieve that goal quite quickly.

Synergy is simpler - and less likely game winning - for example:
Feral Animalist + Rabble-Rouser = Good damage if Animalist gets through and/or PUMPED. In my case I had a open swing and I killed my opponent with this synergy. (in my case Rabble was with Bloodthirst - so 4/1 - plus 2 pumps from Animalist's own for a SWING of 16 Damage v. 15 Life)

So - the question becomes - can a Combo be Synergistic?
Answer: It always is at some level.

So - can a Synergy be Combo?
Answer: Almost Never - but there are rare occasions.

So - how do you know if it's a Combo or a Synergy?

Ask yourself the following questions:
1) Does this combination of cards create a game winning status? (i.e. go Infinite / Lock Down?)

2) Does this combination of cards create a total effect greater than the sum of it's parts? (i.e. go Infinite - create a bigger effect like pseudo-WOG)

Most likely if the answer is no on both accounts - then it's a Synergy. Yes on both accounts - then it's a Combo.

Let's test this theory:

Escape Artist/Any Pinger + Sigil of Sleep
Combo or Synergy?

Does it create a game winning state? - Yes / No? - MZ says No.
Does it do more than the sum of it's parts? - Yes / No? - MZ says No.

Although the grouping of the two cards creates a powerful effect - it doesn't meet the criteria for a combo.

Verdict: Synergy

Argothian Elder + Wirewood Lodge + Forest (enchanted with Wild Growth/Dawn's Reflection/Utopian Sprawl)

Does the effect create a game winning State? - Yes / No? - MZ says Yes. (it goes Infinite on Mana)

Does the effect created more than the sum of it's parts? - Yes / No? - MZ says Yes (none of these cards on there own could create infinite mana - and this particular combonation - even though you can do it several ways - has a better effect than it's separate parts)

Verdict: Combo

Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind + Curiosity/Keen Sense

Does the effect create a game winning state? - Yes / No? - MZ says Yes - as long as you have more cards in deck than opponent has life.

Does the effect created more than the sum of it's parts? - Yes / No? - MZ says No - because it's effects are clearly listed and combined are deadly - but not hidden.

Verdit: Synergy

[death by aggro]

Well, since we're going to go by definitions, let's look at the one for combo:


Combo-
A small jazz band.

Also, the original definition of synergy was as a medical term explaining the act of two or more muscles/drugs working together.

So yes, Magic does define things differently.

[ThunderHog]

@DBA: :rotf: That's awesome.

[death by aggro]

@DBA: :rotf: That's awesome.

It's even more awesome because in my very next post here I god ninja'd by a moderator. I need speed pillsXD.

[Ryuzaki]

YWN's post makes me very happy, and explains my post in detail. Yay. :D

[death by aggro]

YWN's post makes me very happy, and explains my post in detail. Yay. :D

YWN supporting logic?!:eek: HOLY- oh wait, it came from Ryuzaki. Phew, never mind then:p.

[Barachem]

I'll try to illustrate the difference between synergy and combo (combination).

Synergy:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/synergy (2): a mutually advantageous conjunction or compatibility of distinct business participants or elements (as resources or efforts)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synergy

Combo -> combination:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/combination (2): an ordered sequence: as a: a sequence of letters or numbers chosen in setting a lock ; also : the mechanism operating or moved by the sequence b: a rapid sequence of punches in boxing c: any subset of a set considered without regard to order within the subset
(5) a: the act or process of combining ; especially : that of uniting to form a chemical compound b: the quality or state of being combined

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combo_(computer_and_video_games)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combination_(chess)

Now for magic i think it is like this:

Synergy is the mutually beneficial acting of different elements on each other.

A combo or combination is the sequencing of elements that act together to produce highly beneficial results.

Synergy in magic can be also described as cards/effects that are able to perform desired functions in a deck, but when acting on each other they either boost each other and/or yield a new benefit, in most cases slightly to moderate.

Case in point: Sensei's Divining Top and shuffle effects.
The Top's intended use is plainly to see see the top 3 cards of your library and rearrange them if necessary, all for the price of 1 colorless mana.
Tapping the Top means that one draws a card and places the Top on the top of one's library.
This is a deceptively powerful effect in itself.

Shuffle effects can spring forth from all kinds of other effects, but most of the cases feature some kind of tutoring as the reason to shuffle.
Then the shuffle effect is used to make memorizing the order of cards and benefiting thereof impossible.
The shuffling is neutral in itself and makes tutoring fair.

Both effects are in no kind related and stand in their own rights.
But when brought together, they yield a new benefit, namely of seeing new card with the Top after each shuffle effect, effectively making the shuffling a slower kind of tutoring effect, albeit being quite random.
This is a benefit and while this can be called a combo or combination in non-magic terms, it is clear that both parts are fine on their own, do not depend on each other AND there is no sequence involved.
Therefore it is synergy in magic terms.

A combo in magic is a combination of at least 2 card/effects than only together will yield a powerful to game-winning effect.

Case in point: Viridian Joiner and Umbral Mantle.
Viridian Joiner taps to give green mana equal to its power.
As it is, it only give 1 green mana by itself, so without power boosts, it will not give more mana.
But power boosts are plentiful and while one could see their acting upon the Viridian Joiner as a combo, it is mere synergy, as the basic properties of the creature are not changed and no sequence is needed for the power boosts.

Umbral Mantle gives the equipped creature the possibility to pay 3 and untap it to get a temporary powerboost of +2/+2 until end of turn.
This is the intended use and it is not synergy nor combo.

But putting the Umbral Mantle on the Viridian Joiner creates a unique possibility never seen before on the individual cards.
Like with Sensei's Divining Top and shuffle effects this could be seen as synergy, yet there are fundamental differences.

First, the interaction between Sensei's Divining Top and shuffle effects happens automatically when both are used, regardless of the order in which they are used.
But using Viridian Joiner and Umbral Mantle necessitates a certain order in which the abilities are used and their effects are applied.
One starts by tapping the 1/1 Viridian Joiner for 1 green mana and then adding 2 mana of any type to your mana pool.
Then one pays 3 mana of any kind and untaps the Viridian Joiner to give it +2/+2 to the end of turn and make it a 3/3.
Then one taps the Viridian Joiner for 3 green mana, which are used in addition of untapping it to give it another +2/+2 until the end of the turn, making it a 5/5.
One keeps repeating the tapping for an increasing uneven number of green mana and untapping while paying 3 mana of any type to keep pumping the Viridian Joiner by +2/+2 until end of turn each time until one halts these processes.
Then one is left with a Viridian Joiner with a really huge uneven amount of power and toughness and an even larger amount of green mana.

Secondly, the resulting effect(s) of the interactions between Viridian Joiner and Umbral Mantle are very powerful, possibly game-winning.
For the interactions between Sensei's Divining Top and shuffle effects, the resulting effects are moderately powerful, but pale in front of even less powerful combos.

So i have a definition of synergy and combo that should be clear in most cases.

Synergy: Cards/effects, of which the interactions result in a subtle to moderately powerful effect, which slightly/doesn't depends on the order in which the cards/effects are used.

Combo: Cards/effects, of which the interactions result in a very powerful to game-winningl effect, which strongly/totally depends on the order in which the cards/effects are used.

So i guess a combo is a overly strong synergy between cards/effects which at least strongly depends on the order in which they are taken.

I hope this is a useful definition.

[guest1234]

That's a good attempt Barachem. I do think you are mislead by the dictionary emphasis on sequence which I really don't think is that important. I think the important part is two effects combining to make a new effect.

Hunted Wumpus effect: Your opponent gets tokens
Leyline of Singularity effect: multiples of a creature go to the graveyard
Combined effect: Opponent gets nothing.

And in this case it doesn't matter which card came first.

Synergy is like "creature gets +5/+5" and "creature gets haste". It's nice together, but there's nothing new here.

[Solstice]

...

Combination

1. the act of combining or the state of being combined.
2. a number of things combined: a combination of ideas.
3. something formed by combining: A chord is a combination of notes.

Synergy

1.

The interaction of two or more agents or forces so that their combined effect is greater than the sum of their individual effects.
2.

Cooperative interaction among groups, especially among the acquired subsidiaries or merged parts of a corporation, that creates an enhanced combined effect.



A combo is anything where you take multiple individual parts and combine them. In magic, this constitutes any spell chain, complimenting permanents, etc. that can be thought up. This means that enchant creatures cast on creatures IS in fact a combo.

A synergy would specify a specific type of combo where the outcome is in fact greater than the total sum of its parts. What this means is, were we to say either Red or Blue Elemental Blast was a good card with Painter's Servant, that is a synergy because the combination has an effect greater than their individual parts: the ability to counter/destroy almost anything in your enemy's deck (for fun lets talk about adding an isochron scepter in that mix-- you may giggle now).

Most all combos worth discussing are, in fact, synergies as well. Most combos not worth noting are just plain combos (i.e. dropping a sarra's embrace on anything is all well and good... thats a combo... but dropping it on a phyrexian colossus is epic fun... which is also a synergy).

Now since every synergy is actually a combo, and since almost every combo worth noting is a synergy, why don't we all grab a cup of tea and just opt for the word combo? It is a hell of a lot easier to just use a single word rather than arguing semantics :P

[Your Worst Nightmare]

Now since every synergy is actually a combo, and since almost every combo worth noting is a synergy, why don't we all grab a cup of tea and just opt for the word combo? It is a hell of a lot easier to just use a single word rather than arguing semantics :P
We... already were? o.O

We had already decided as well that going by the dictionary was a no-go, as Magic-ese itself treats certain terms differently than the English language does, and Magic lingo is no different. Read DBA's post, seven posts above yours. :)

[CoglineErro]

I've always seen synergy as the interaction between cards, whenever two cards compliment each other (Mobilization+a soldier for instance) whereas a combo is a specific set of cards which create a unified effect (Niv-Mizzet+Curiosity. Combos go beyond what the card was created for. Curiosity was not created to give infinite damage, but mobilization was made to give soldiers vigilance.

[FuDaWg45]

I've always seen synergy as the interaction between cards, whenever two cards compliment each other (Mobilization+a soldier for instance) whereas a combo is a specific set of cards which create a unified effect (Niv-Mizzet+Curiosity. Combos go beyond what the card was created for. Curiosity was not created to give infinite damage, but mobilization was made to give soldiers vigilance.

This is the idea.

Rancor plus Chameleon Colossus - synergy. This is not a combo, because it's just two cards doing their thing, and doing it well.

Ornithopter plus Goblin Bombardment plus Enduring Renewal - combo. Ornithopter certainly isn't doing what it normally does, and the effect of all three cards FAR outshadows anything the three cards could possibly do alone.

[CoglineErro]

Back to one of the discussion points that created this thread, I do not think that synergy should be in the combo thread. If a card come out in ROE that says "Creatures you control gain +1/+1 and trample" then I could put that next to every creature, say its synergy, and call it a day with a mile long post. If you really feel people can't see the synergy between a card with deathtouch and giving it first strike, maybe we should have a general synergy thread. Synergy tends to be broad ideas rather than specific instances. We could have a single running thread with a list of abilities that go well together and why. The more I type about it, the better of an idea it seems. Then every set the thread could be updated with "New Keyword H goes well with trample, haste, and cards that care about X." Kind of a cheat sheet to good ideas. It would give people a place to discuss the synergies they've found without fear of persecution. Thus harmony on the whole internets would ensue. Well, maybe not, but it'd make the combo forums a lot less sticky.

[Your Worst Nightmare]

Back to one of the discussion points that created this thread, I do not think that synergy should be in the combo thread.
I'm going to have to disagree. Creature + Creature Enhancement "combos" are clearly out of the question, but two-card combinations that are clearly synergy and not combo but are innovative and/or interesting enough to inspire decks built around them are what combo threads should be brimming with. Combos in the true sense of the Magic-related meaning cater only to a really small number of people. Honestly, when you have a deck based around a two-card infinite damage combo, why should you be care about more two-card infinite damage combos? You'll essentially be building the exact same deck, that wins exactly the same way, with exactly the same weaknesses, etc.

Seriously, post in a combo thread Doubling Season + the card from the latest set that uses counters and/or tokens and no one will bat an eyelid. But post something like Fleshwrither + Nephilim, most definitely synergy and not combo, and you'll nonetheless see people's creative juices flowing.

Now you are entitled to ask, "Then why does the section and all the threads have COMBO in their name?" And I answer: because saying 'The Section for Posting Combinations of Cards Which Produce Interesting Effects When Together' takes too damn long. 'Combo' is a short and simple word everybody understands (not to mention combos are indeed the currency here, it simply isn't just that). What we need is to purge the need people have to say, "that's synergy not combo, noooob1!1111" Changing the section's name to 'The Synergy Forum' isn't the solution either as then opposite would then ensue, "that's combo not synergy, noooob1!1111" And separating the two is just dumb, not to mention combos-borderline-synergies and synergies-borderline-combos would then have no place to go.

Better to just leave things as they are. :)

[Aneximines]

I agree with the above post.

Personally, I maintain a very broad definition of "combo," by which any productive combination of cards counts. Mons's Goblin Raiders + Giant Growth: combo? Sure. It's just not an interesting combo. And that, I think, is the truly important factor for this forum; that the card interactions discussed be interesting, innovative, and/or thought-provoking. For very limited formats, even the boring ones would be good to mention if they're particularly useful/efficient. Whether they're "combos," "synergies," or "[random buzzword]s" doesn't actually matter in the least.

[Harizl]

I have a shapeshifter deck that has much of both fields.

Volrath's Shapeshifter:

Synergy:
- Psychatog
- Buried Alive
- Tortured Existence
- Gifts Ungiven
- Twisted Abomination
Combo:
- Nacatl war-Pride
- Phage the Untouchable
- Novablast Wurm
- Reveillark
- Rakdos the Defiler
- Defiler of Souls

There is a sliding scale of extreme non-synergy scaling away to synergy/solo-playability.
(I often change out creatures when new sets come out, it's a fun deck to mess about with.)