Promoting the League

[Tynion]

Forgive me LD, I am assuming this is a topic that would be acceptable for this forum, as we need to begin discussing this topic in order to further our cause here.

Advertising is something we ALL can do. It does not need to be a placed ad that costs money. It can be anything from a well written article to word of mouth. I think it is an important thing that we need to discuss and figure out exactly what we plan to do to do this.

Further, I think a plan of attack is in order. We need to figure out a few things:

a.) How big do we want to get?
b.) How do we deal with the growth?
c.) How do we deal with the rotation of players?
d.) How do we spread the word?
e.) What happens if LD (or any other league head) loses thier connection for a extended time?
f.) How do you plan to continue the growth of the league?

I am interested in your responses before I blab my mouth about it.

Lastly, I think it would be a great time to talk about alternate programs or perhaps even standardization of the magic program used.

There are numerous other programs out there. I am a really good example of why I am offering this tidbit. Every single round of the preliminary tournament, I lost a game due to mana screw. Considering that I have 24 lands in the deck and 6 mana artifacts, this should not be possible. Yet my opponent's can attest to this. What this does is makes me handicaped. I must win two games before an opponent can win one. My gripe is that the MWS shuffler program is atrocious at best. If we can not get it fixed, then I propose that we search for a suitable replacement, as this is a major issue in my opinion for an organized competition body.

I also offer that perhaps we could find someone who is designing a program and we could offer our time as guinea pigs to test and help configure the program so that we can eventually get a solid program in here. I know of atleast one program that even has the game rules programmed in so as to not need a judge, however it is very beta. Thus the need to help a guy like that out.

So let us begin the conversation of how to get this ball rolling for real.

[Serra Redeemer]

I'm in for Legacy testing.

[NeoMagicwarrior]

Every single round of the preliminary tournament, I lost a game due to mana screw. Considering that I have 24 lands in the deck and 6 mana artifacts, this should not be possible. Yet my opponent's can attest to this. What this does is makes me handicapped. I must win two games before an opponent can win one. My gripe is that the MWS shuffler program is atrocious at best. If we can not get it fixed, then I propose that we search for a suitable replacement, as this is a major issue in my opinion for an organized competition body.



the MWS shuffler is a PERFECT randomization program. Its just luck of the draw that you got mana screwed. The Code is rock solid and its actually more sound than a real person shuffling.

and as for the problem with any leader losing connection, i say we set up a set of people authorized to run our tours. LD and haggis are obviously already there, but we should have about 10 or so people who are are allowed to run then officially.

[Haggis]

My thoughts

a.) How big do we want to get?
The bigger the better. The more memebers the better, the bigger we get, teh more people tell other people, which brings even more people to the site, signs them up for the forums, which help the forums, the site, the site sposners etc. etc.

b.) How do we deal with the growth?
More members, more tournaments, more TO's keep a ratio of some sorts.

c.) How do we deal with the rotation of players?
Sorry no clue.

d.) How do we spread the word?
Right now, I've been doing it by word of mouth. But we could also suck up to a writer (wink wink nudge nudge) to write something in an article, I've posted a MDV record in my sig others have aswell drawing attention that way. Memebers that also posting in other forums could mention it there aswell. etc. etc.

e.) What happens if LD (or any other league head) loses thier connection for a extended time?
Well if we establish a team of TO's, and have say two or three TO's over teh number of tournaments we are running, i think the plan would be for 3 a month for now so like a 5 TO group. this way if one loses there connection the other can pick up where they left off. Now i know you'll ask. How can he send his info if he loses his connection? I have a solustion for that. We get ourselves a Head TO, and after every round the TO's send there logs and standings and what not to him, so he then can send it to who ever picks up the Lost TO's tourny.

f.) How do you plan to continue the growth of the league?
Well of course the bigger we get teh more people talk about the more people get interested in it this is sorta the same as question D? no?

[Tynion]

the MWS shuffler is a PERFECT randomization program. Its just luck of the draw that you got mana screwed. The Code is rock solid and its actually more sound than a real person shuffling.
http://www.magicdeckvortex.com/images/article_images/mdvarticle0389b_red_x.jpg

Share your drugs please. They seem good. No one has ever liked the shuffler. As a matter of fact, when you go deep into the program while deck building, you can even find numerous different ways to have the shuffler work, yet you can't get those damn things to apply during duel mode. What's worse, I can play the same exact deck with real cards and never get mana hosed, yet on here it is consistant.

All tournaments are based on finding the better player/deck not who has better luck. I want to eliminate the poor shuffles, as it happens waaaaay too often.

[lionden_56]

Trust me, no shuffler is going to be perfect. If you get a perfect mix of land and spells YOU'RE CHEATING. "Sufficiently Randomized" doesn't mean that you never get mana screwed. People have been complaining about the MWS shuffler and the MODO shuffler forever. Yes, it is seed based, but it generates random numbers, which people don't like because in real life they don't truly randomize decks. Now, I'm not calling everyone cheaters, but rifle shuffling 5 times then table shuffling is not the same as generating a completely random set of 60 numbers. It never will be.

That out of the way...my $.02 of this situation.

I've listed a couple options in the comments thread that I've gotten maybe very few replies to. If we want to have multiple TO's, great. If I disappear for a while, then yes, we'll need people to pick up for me.

Main site advertising is probably a must (I'll write something). My main concern with that is that we currently don't have prize support. We aren't really playing for anything (save pride).

No one seemed to say yay or nay to my ratings idea...so unless someone posts something else that's what I'm going to go with.

[Haggis]

Trust me, no shuffler is going to be perfect. If you get a perfect mix of land and spells YOU'RE CHEATING. "Sufficiently Randomized" doesn't mean that you never get mana screwed. People have been complaining about the MWS shuffler and the MODO shuffler forever. Yes, it is seed based, but it generates random numbers, which people don't like because in real life they don't truly randomize decks. Now, I'm not calling everyone cheaters, but rifle shuffling 5 times then table shuffling is not the same as generating a completely random set of 60 numbers. It never will be.

That out of the way...my $.02 of this situation.

I've listed a couple options in the comments thread that I've gotten maybe very few replies to. If we want to have multiple TO's, great. If I disappear for a while, then yes, we'll need people to pick up for me.

Main site advertising is probably a must (I'll write something). My main concern with that is that we currently don't have prize support. We aren't really playing for anything (save pride).

No one seemed to say yay or nay to my ratings idea...so unless someone posts something else that's what I'm going to go with.

Mulitipule TO's are a must IMO.

as for the rating system, do what your doing already, if it already does it for you and its easy enough why deveate?

[Tresserhorn]

Perhaps if the league gets big enough, we can speak to some of our sponcers (mtgfanatic, SCG, ect) and see about store credit. Or better yet, why not ask Rancored_Elf? He does something like this over at mtgs.

Now I'd be willing to bet if we were getting 16+ players per tourny, someone'd be willing to do that for us.

[Haggis]

See i have no problem personally to donate my own cards to the tourny as prizes, but all my left over cards are junk, who wants to win a tourny and be rewarded with 25 scryb sprites

[Tynion]

Perhaps if the league gets big enough, we can speak to some of our sponcers (mtgfanatic, SCG, ect) and see about store credit. Or better yet, why not ask Rancored_Elf? He does something like this over at mtgs.

Now I'd be willing to bet if we were getting 16+ players per tourny, someone'd be willing to do that for us.

Ha... now you are getting to the wall my friend. I wish you good luck in your venture. Perhaps having numerous people pushing on the wall will have more success than one person pushing. :E


-------------------------

You know fellas... we do have a Blog page sitting around collecting dust...

[Aladdin]

who wants to win a tourny and be rewarded with 25 scryb sprites
Yes ! XD I want ! I want ! I want ! XD

Hum... Enthusiasm aside, prizes aren't what matter the most... Attendance and regularity are far more attractive :) (to me at least)


a.) How big do we want to get?
Casualness should be unrestrictive. So, whoever is willing to play should be allowed to do so, unless serious faults are made.
--> Growth goes with the banning of steadily non-respectful players.
--> The system has to adapt itself to the growth, not try to regulate it. More people involved means more people willing to help with the organization process, so no there is no overwhelming, automatic difficulty here.

b.) How do we deal with the growth?
In time. Hiring new personnel, most probably already committed in the tournaments or moderation processes, to help for an appropriate management.
--> No need for 10 moderators now, but the number of League related moderators should always fit the number of involved members.

c.) How do we deal with the rotation of players?
Maybe by setting some kind of non-cumulative points system ?
All points could be reset every once in a while (once a year ?).

d.) How do we spread the word?
You proposed via the Writers' Guild... Sounds fair to me. From time to time, tournament reports could be fun ("And then Anonymous misclicked during combat, ensuring a quick death by unblocked creatures...")
And it will keep spreading by itself if the system is efficient :)

e.) What happens if LD (or any other league head) loses their connection for a extended time?
There obviously is a need for more than 2 people to handle the project.
It looks demanding, and everything can't be burdenned on them, especially if regular tournaments are to be held.
A 3-5 people team should be enough for now to ensure a not-too-burdening management :)

f.) How do you plan to continue the growth of the league?
I think this kind of project shouldn't be started with an end in view. If it fails somewhere along the road, it'll end but it's no need to plan that yet.

[Tresserhorn]

See i have no problem personally to donate my own cards to the tourny as prizes, but all my left over cards are junk, who wants to win a tourny and be rewarded with 25 scryb sprites

We at DA Gaming would also be willing to donate some prizes. It'll be eaiser once I'm in Cali, but we are willing.


Ha... now you are getting to the wall my friend. I wish you good luck in your venture. Perhaps having numerous people pushing on the wall will have more success than one person pushing.

If the right people push it will have more of a benfit then if everyone pushes. Honestly, Streetz by himself would have a better chance then if you, LD, Haggis and I all pushed on the same spot on the same wall :) (Unless of course you're pushing on my wall, in which case, I'd be happy to listen to any request/offers)

[Tynion]

... Momma always told me not to bite the hand that feeds me, so I respectfully retreat from the discussion.

[Tresserhorn]

... Momma always told me not to bite the hand that feeds me, so I respectfully retreat from the discussion.


Oh no. that's not what I meant. :( don't retreat.

All I was meaning to say, is that we may not have the same impact as the person who set up the banner trades with some places.

Sorry if it didn't come across that way :(

[Oblivion]

the MWS shuffler is a PERFECT randomization program. Its just luck of the draw that you got mana screwed. The Code is rock solid and its actually more sound than a real person shuffling.

But seriously...come again?

But if LD is correct, and its a purely randomized draw, then there really is nothing we can do about it, is there (programming wizards, please step forward)?

How can we help to get sponsors?

[FrycHiKn]

OMG!!!!!! I hate the shuffler!!!! And the Shuffler hate me!

My thoughts

a.) How big do we want to get?
It doesn't matter, if we are small, 1 tourney. If we get to big, divide into several groups and the winners of those gropus battle each other in a battle royal :D

b.) How do we deal with the growth?
Explained in the a point.

c.) How do we deal with the rotation of players?
Exactly what do you mean?

d.) How do we spread the word?
MDV's article and a banner on the front page might help.

e.) What happens if LD (or any other league head) loses thier connection for a extended time?
I could help in that :D This isn't a problem itself, we just need to establish a team :E


My thoughts :E

[Haggis]

Well i think a TO's seems to be what most people think i best.

now we just need to figure out who and how many.

I nominate Lionden. I don't se why he isn't a shoe-in he did teh first tourny so that should place him as a TO's hell even Head TO

[deviant_audio]

a.) How big do we want to get?
As big as we possibly can.

b.) How do we deal with the growth?
Offer prizes for the winners, to accommodate for such a (possibly) large league.

c.) How do we deal with the rotation of players?
require a certain minimum post count for participation.

d.) How do we spread the word?
Advertise in our sigs, on the main site, word of mouth

e.) What happens if LD (or any other league head) loses their connection for a extended time?
I will also be willing to step up and help. I don't plan on leaving for a while.

f.) How do you plan to continue the growth of the league?
Advertising, bigger and better prizes.


My thoughts

[Tresserhorn]

Agreed on Lionden.

I'll offer up my services if you want them. :)

[Haggis]

i'm in for TO aswell if you guy will have me

i think i did a pretty good job on teh last on and now i have me DCI reporter

[Tynion]

Alright, so gathering some of the data above....

FIRST A COMMENT FROM THE USUAL VOICE BEING IGNORED :D

Guys, it means alot to me to see you all getting involved. When I first attempted this back around a year ago, I couldn't beg people enough to help out. MZ helped in discussions and so did Scion, that was about it. To see numerous people pitching in makes me extremely happy, and I thank you all for it. Maybe it just goes to show that less of me is better? Im not entirely sure...

@ Tress... there is background story that you do not know, yet if you put your hands on that wall to push, you will find out how deep the rabbit hole really goes. It was not meant as a pot shot, I just don't have the energy or time to revisit that direction. If you want to discuss it further in private, get a hold of me.

The overwhelming direction seems to be in prizes from reading the responses. I have to different responses for you in that regard:

a.) How do you get regular prizes without draining your resources?

b.) How do you keep the casual feel of the entire thing while drawing the spikes out of the woodworks?

Also, what I have found to work best is if you have a head guy basically rationing out responsibilities. It is nice to have six guys all volunteer, but eventually they are going to buttheads on things or worse, assume someone else is doing something.

I propose nominating one person to not do the TO job, but to basically oversee everything, be an enforcer, and network...

This position could also be someone who brainstorms new tournaments, schedules them, looks for possible sponsors, etc. Freeing up the TOs to just do thier thing and not bog them down.

Someone... who is not me lol :P (I have conflicting interests)

[Serra Redeemer]

I do not want to be in any discussion for enforcer. And all you have to do is look at the Non Magic related stuff to see why. But I am All up to Pony a Prize.

[Tresserhorn]

a.) How do you get regular prizes without draining your resources?

b.) How do you keep the casual feel of the entire thing while drawing the spikes out of the woodworks?

a) That takes a bit of work, but really, the EXT tourny has brought in 20 people. Just with the people on the site, I'd say we have the resources to last us a little while anyway.

b) this takes a bit of magic. The Casual feel comes from those who play for the enjoyment of playing and not a desire to be on top all the time. The main reasons why Netdecks are so often seen at FNMs is because points are on the line from the DCI. The players have also paid for a chance to win a prize and/or Money/store credit.
Here on MDV, we don't have an entry fee, we're not playing for money, and we're not playing for DCI points with some faint hope of getting into PTQs and so on.

If say we did have an entry fee, and were giving away say a Judge Meddling Mage (crossed my mind more then once in the past 48 hours), you would see 85% of the players playing a net deck. All because there is money involved and because there is a big prize waiting for the 1 winner.

Some people will ALWAYS play a netdeck. It's the nature of the beast. They have a very strong desire to win; they don't have alot of time to build, test, then change, test again, etc etc (probably most true here out of all the situtions); or they have a need to show how good they are.

[Tynion]

I have talked to Haggis about a way to add a casual feel to the league. It involved a modified variant of Vangaard, but I need to shake the laziness off and finish the design.

Stupid Mal infected Yawg with the lazyness, and now Yawg is rubbing off on me!