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View Full Version : [Inter-Clan Discussion] Mage vs Machine



Friend Mairsil
03-11-2008, 06:17 PM
as the title states, this discussion is to prove which is better and why. to get you started here is the beginning of the debate between me TH and grump.

you are sadly mistaken my friend, see through the power of magic, we can summon mirror images of an original, and then improve upon them as we see fit. machines are good, but magic is far more flexable. so what was it you wanted to speak about?



Bah... Sadistic and infernal copies of perfect machines make useless creations. They make for an unpredictable killing machine that'll just as quickly tear YOU to shreds as it would your enemy.

On top of that, I had nothing in particular I wished to speak about. I was just making friendly conversation. And, trust me, I carry no diabolic schemes and incurable plagues with me... this time.


well then how about we have a chat about phyrexian perfection vs magical mastery. now im sure you can guess which one i choose


magic has a funny issue with it though. you see if i were to take to mages next to each other and ask them both to make a chair at the same time one will likely make a wooden chair that has four legs and a back to it with no arms whilst the other would make a four legged bone chair with arms too.
that said your creation would be a mishap and if forgotten it would simply disappear read "the eternal ice" -jeff grub it'll help you with your.. assumption.



Works for me - but first, we should describe how that they're better than the original. A Phyrexian Rager for example, was once a human. It was a human and has been dramatically enhanced by it's mechanic parts. It's bigger, stronger, and doesn't hesitate to respond to command. In Yawgmoth, there is no need for free will. I would use my Battleflies as an example here as they did technically start as mosquitoes, but so much of their organic compounds were removed that there are actually none left. They're now composed of 100% machinery. Though the original body structure is almost identical, their mechanical parts make them stronger and more intelligent in the form of responding to commands.


how funny, im sure you read my name...right? so im sure you know that i was the one that told jodah that. of course i said it under the mask of lim-dul, but eh, still the same now if i may, i can correct what you said:
if you put two mages together and have them both summon a chair, both will summon a chair to the exact way they believe a chair to truly be. which in other words means, they will summon there picture of a chair. that is why jodah summoned a wood chair, while i summoned a throne made of bones
magic is as you make it. in almost the same way you make a phyrexian, it can be said that they are the stages of a magician/mage/spellshaper/whatever. first you need to remove the blocks in their mind, your obidence* to yawgmoth. second they need to be taught the correct path, again wisdom through yawgmoth. thrid they must be made stronger body/mind wise, your powerful augmentations*. and here is where we differ. as a mage i can either be my own boss or under contract to whoever would pay, while you on the other hand, must now obey and follow orders...i think i know why they choose that name now...damn took that long....i need to stop ...but anyways, there you go

@TH - a mage is better than a human, becuase he's a human above humans. also he's better than a phyrexian(hopefully this doesnt come out wrong) because he can adapt far faster, becuase he learns what he need to, and doesnt need a grant from on high to give him stronger body parts...i think i said that right.



That is an interesting way to look at it and I completely see your point, but it's when the Phyrexian GETS those parts is when he actually BECOMES a Phyrexian. Also, when the said mage dies, that's usually it. When a Phyrexian dies, depending on the condition that his body is in, he can either be recycled and his parts can be used elsewhere or sometimes he can even be revived. With this, a Phyrexian never truly dies.



sorry i could not quote the book exactly to the part for it was not in hand but i do know that shortly after that the chair disappeared where a machine would not, also to point out is your computer magic made? hmmm? lol



irst ones true, no denying that. though on the mages side he earns through hardwork which makes his gifts far more special and if good enough, adaptable. now the second statement is sort of right, but again a mage can live for forever if he is good enough. i.e. barren, i would say jodah, but he was dipped in a pool of something...anyways. yes and a mages note/books that he has written through out his life are usually kept in a libary for others to learn. which immortalizes him in word. so a mage never dies


We combine life and artifice into perfection. There are also some Phyrexian mages (in a sense, at least), though I imagine they'd take a lot more time to breed and so are usually not worth it, given Phyrexia's limited resources. And it's just so much easier to use spinal implants. Resistance is futile.


i believe this is a good place to start, so lets begin :alright:

Luthervamplord
03-11-2008, 08:03 PM
Hmmm, an interesting starting point for sure.

To their pro's, a machine is an almost perfect being designed to perform a given function far better then a mortal can ever hope to achieve - it's simply impossible for flesh and bone to compete with Steel; we've known this since the Dark Ages.

But I must stress a few things here - One is that they are 'Almost' perfect; like all things created by mortal hands, it's prone to mortal failings. Even if we had a machine creating another machine, at some point at the beginning of the cycle a mortal built the first one and that means all subsequent machines share the original flaws.

Secondly is that they are built to a clear and defined purpose; there is no middle ground. That one kills, that one harvests, that one gathers intel and that one watches the others performance - Beyond their primary function they have no room to function.

Now a Magi has the mortal spark; he has the ability to adapt, adopt and change at will without outside influence if needs be. He can twist the tools at his disposal to fill the moment and can muddle through; which is usually all that is needed. But being mortal brings back the same problem, they're open to mortal flaws - they tire, they can't perform as efficiently, they are harder to maintain and restore and usually, once it's dead it's gone.

Given the choice I would always pick a Mage over a Machine and not simply due to a predisposition based upon my clan but rather on the basis that I don't like the concept that if a new situation arises that I've never faced before, that I'd have to pull back, analyze it and make modifications to handle it; there by possibly generating another weakness or deficiency in the system. But give them their dues, when a machine is built to the right job; it will handle it better.

ThunderHog
03-12-2008, 01:22 AM
I agree with Luther to a degree. A mage would have the ability to adapt much quicker. If it came to a straight out war though, I would have to go with a machine.

A tireless worker/fighter/killer that needs no sleep, no food, no water, and won't complain. It has no feeling, no remorse, no hesitation, no opinion, and certainly no morals. It will obey every command undisputed and fulfill that command to the best of it's abilities - which are really good. It's the perfect 'right-hand'...

Michael_Zeora
03-12-2008, 07:06 AM
I have to point this out real quick. A machine doesn't require food like a mortal doesn't require gasoline. At some point a machine will wear out it's internal fuel source granted mortals do it more often, but really machine will continue to work until they drop dead from lack of power. (Worse case senerio you need that replacement right on the battlefield.)

I know that all Phyrexians have power stones, and that magical energy source can last for more than any fair share of time, but it does wear out.

also a neat thing about magic, is that you can use it to manifest food or suppress hunger to the point of not needing food, but a source of energy (the land for mana)

Yawgmoth
03-12-2008, 07:49 AM
Yes, ordinary machines are stagnant and unadaptive - but what if you built the machine to adapt? To evolve? Even if it has a very human origin, something that is sentient and able to directly manifest it's own (or their own) "evolution" would very quickly reach the point which we call Technological Singularity. Once they are there, technology would not be very unlike magic. They would be able to simulate human minds (and better), they would (like those on the first plane of Phyrexia) be able to perfectly create synthetic life* and as seen in Yawgmoth - be able to master nano-technology. This is only speculation, but since flowstone is basically nanites and Yawgmoth's true form in the Inner Sanctum is only controlled by his will along with the fact that the short story Phyrexian Creations speak about him creating aerial neurons (Also maybe his death cloud-form) - I would argue that Yawgmoth sometime in the past converted his somewhat (then) less than human-body into a nanite-cloud. Thus translating his organic mind into aerial neurons (flowstone-nanites) that were also his body. Probably only a section of the whole carried his "core" (being the whole cloud would probably making him suspectible to damage.) So, he basically becomes a sentient "utility fog" or "foglet". For such a machine, there is very little one can not do if one has a little imagination.

Hopefully I didn't ramble too much. Happy Go Lucky.

Luthervamplord
03-12-2008, 08:03 AM
No, it is a valid point Yawgmoth; should a machine ever gain the 'Mortal Spark' then it would out-strip us all - longer running time, creative and adaptive, with easier maintenance and finally, the ability to learn.

Michael_Zeora
03-12-2008, 08:09 AM
I do have to agree with Yawgmoth to a point.

1 a machine is built to a purpose. If it's purpose is to survive (or a bug in the program has made it sentient thus wants to survive) then it will survive at all costs thus adapt.

2. It will continue to adapt until it's reached a level of survival. In which it won't change until it loses it's ability to survive (i.e. change in external conditions) in which it will adapt. the level of speed is again based on the original programming, if not changed.

3. Nanotechnology is a fantastic art in the field of technology. The problem with nanotechnology is that once it's programmed like us to reproduce and survive it would undoubtedly take on similar patterns than what the rest of the world has. Machine mimic-ing organic. (Art imitating Life)

@Luther - it would only outstrip us for any of the following happened.
1 - direct threat to it's survival
2 - we are the food.
3 - combonations of A and B.

Friend Mairsil
03-12-2008, 12:40 PM
A tireless worker/fighter/killer that needs no sleep, no food, no water, and won't complain. It has no feeling, no remorse, no hesitation, no opinion, and certainly no morals. It will obey every command undisputed and fulfill that command to the best of it's abilities - which are really good. It's the perfect 'right-hand'...


though this maybe true, i would rather have an army of flesh. granted that flesh better be covered in course fur, have large horns with the uncanny ability to use a battle axe. Or be it blue skin and white hair. though eaither possess what i would want in a fighter: heart. mortal beings are just that mortal, as such they will fighter harder, and with more purpose than the mchines. the urge to live far surpasses the any machine ability to kill.


For such a machine, there is very little one can not do if one has a little imagination.

the same could be said of the mage. of course the wording would have to shifted a bit. lets what would our statement be..."there is little a mage cant do, when pushed"

Luthervamplord
03-12-2008, 12:42 PM
the same could be said of the mage. of course the wording would have to shifted a bit. lets what would our statement be..."there is little a mage cant do, when pushed"

Quotage FTW

Grumpherys
03-12-2008, 02:59 PM
one word disease.... i say this because at the moment i am sick stupid human likelyness!

Friend Mairsil
03-12-2008, 03:02 PM
aye tis is true. disease and germs are a mortals worst nightmare. to be killed by something you cant even see, damn.

well machines have....rust?

Luthervamplord
03-12-2008, 03:11 PM
Dependant upon the machine you also have EMP, Water, Magnetism, electricity and large crushing boulders that the machine simply doesn't have the speed to avoid.

ThunderHog
03-12-2008, 05:44 PM
Dependant upon the machine you also have EMP, Water, Magnetism, electricity and large crushing boulders that the machine simply doesn't have the speed to avoid.

EMP and Magnetism probably wouldn't bother a human, unless the levels were EXTREMELY high and even then it probably wouldn't be a threat but more of an annoyance.
Water would kill a human as well, then again it also grants them life. Two-way trade off, kinda cancels out. Lol.
Electricity is a threat to both as well. While I agree that it's more dangerous to a machine, I just wanted to state that it can be lethal to a mortal as well.
As for the crushing boulders... Is that seriously a viable argument? I'm pretty sure it would crush a mortal as well. XD

Michael_Zeora
03-12-2008, 06:08 PM
machines can get viruses too, granted not the same kind as humans but still possible and deadly.

Grumpherys
03-12-2008, 08:23 PM
lol the day i see machine to human virus(like the bird flu scare from bird to human) i think i'll just give up and die... and a brighter note consider this mage not versus machine but with it, cyborg hows that?

BurnBait
03-13-2008, 10:31 PM
What if you combine both? You can use each side to protect the other against the other's weaknesses, use nanotechnology to protect against disease, use the organic to prevent the machine from rusting. Also, that gives you access to the greatest computer ever created, the human brain (don't flame me for this. Rather, read the post, and discuss that. This shouldn't be a matter of semantics). Meanwhile, the mechanical element gives you a much more durable body than pure organics could ever realistically produce.

PS: EMP pulses muck with humans the same way a correspondingly large amount of radiation would. The destabilizing of machines is really a side effect of throwing a bunch of electrons at everything.

Friend Mairsil
03-14-2008, 11:36 AM
i can concede the point that cyborgs are great, i mean look at the Borg. :D

ThunderHog
03-14-2008, 01:18 PM
The Borg are unstoppable...

Even though I think a good ole Nuclear Warhead placed in the center of their cube would probably do some decent amounts of damage. XD

Friend Mairsil
03-14-2008, 02:01 PM
but thats if you can get there with the warhead.

ThunderHog
03-14-2008, 02:53 PM
Beam it in. XD

Grumpherys
03-14-2008, 02:55 PM
true dat...how many times have they beamed on to borg cubes now?

ThunderHog
03-14-2008, 03:07 PM
Couple if I remember correctly. I know the cube has the ability to regenerate itself at a rather rapid rate, but a nuke in the core would probably blow it to pieces. I could be wrong, but it's a decent guess.

Yawgmoth
03-15-2008, 06:34 PM
The thing is that nano-technology would basically beat the need for anything else. Why bother with biology and such when you can simply create anything you want from "nothing"? With nanites and such you could basically create machines (constructs) that are indistinguishable from born variants. The same thing with the "greatest computer" (the brain as BurnBait said, funny name for someone not wanting to get flamed?) - why not work of the same basic blue prints and "enlarge" it? When technology is highly enough advanced all barriers begin to blur. The idea of gigantic organic brain-computers is not very unique or new, but it is still an awesome one.

(Also, beaming is scary.)

BurnBait
03-15-2008, 11:36 PM
I'd like to point out that you can't beam through shields, so nukes are out of the question. Basically what they did when they beamed over to the borg ship was hack onto the beam projected BY the borg cube to transport the drones back to the cube, and mucked with it to beam humans as well. It works because the humans are organic, and have many of the same components as quite a lot of the borg. Missles? Kind of hard to disguise.


funny name for someone not wanting to get flamed?

Heh. I'm called BurnBait because my opinions tend to draw heat, and because weapons fire gravitates towards me in Halo. I challenge you to try to flame me and succeed, though, while I reserve the right to respond ;D

Michael_Zeora
03-16-2008, 09:32 AM
WTF... at one point I thought we were in a discussion of Magic and Philosophy, and now were pulling from Star Trek TNG?

Syphon
03-16-2008, 03:58 PM
Deviation. Objection, your honour! I vote that either side can be very powerful. Artificers can be planeswalkers, planeswalkers can be artificers. Urza used artifacts but was a planeswalker. Venser was an artificer but was able to planeswalk (Am muddy on this fact, it's too recent to have settled in my memory :p)
Golgothan sylex was an artifact. Apocalypse Chime was an artifact. Legacy was an artifact. Null Moon was an artifact. Obliterate was a spell. The World Spell was a spell. (NO, REALLY!?!?!?zomg). You get my drift. ANYTHING can be powerful. There is no definate "this is better". And if there were, there would still be a difference in opinions.

Friend Mairsil
03-16-2008, 04:13 PM
and this thread is to be able to state those opionions

Yawgmoth
03-17-2008, 07:54 AM
I think the point was not spells versus artifice, but mage versus machine. Since a human being is basically a very complex organic construct, machinery would win in the end - if it learned how to adapt itself, it would be able to make itself better at anything that a human could do. If organics is the way to go, they would construct themselves as the beasts and such on the First Sphere of Phyrexia. Creatures so perfect in their construction that it they can live upon beings born of flesh and that beings born of flesh can live of them. Thus a construct mimicing a mage could do what it could do but better, thus blurring the edge between the machine and not-machine. (With the ability to adapt and evolve it would also be able to further evolve from the point where the mage was by constructing things superior to itself.)

EDIT: Now is the time, I think, to start the topic of the Clan Hall. *starts writing*