Darksteel Designer Round 3 (Neo-Voting)

[Cashew]

Darksteel Designer YWN's entry:
Disrupting Sliver - :2mana::u:
Creature - Sliver
All Slivers have "At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice this permanent unless you pay its mana cost."
4/4

or

Challenger Maleficent's entry:
Arrogant Sliver 1UU
Legendary Creature - Sliver (R)
All Slivers are unblockable and are copies of Arrogant Sliver.
3/4
There will be one, or there will be none.



The real entries and the real poll. Voting ends 1/12. If you saw the previous one note the massive errors are now fixed.

[Azrael Subucni]

I gotta hand it to Maleficent, he came up with a really elegant way to kill slivers. It seems a little strong as a card in it's own right, but with the new sets taken into account, any changeling can kill it. Overally a very nice entry.

[death by aggro]

Uhhhhh, soooooo... who's gonna face off against the next Darksteel Designer?

Also, I gotta go with YWN. I can't really explain it, but his card just seems awesome yet balanced enough to actually become a solution for Slivers in real life. Sorry Mal.

[Cashew]

The voting on this one is squaring off to be the tightest race I've seen yet. I'm surprised there isn't any pandering going on trying to explain their cards and win votes over. Both are very nice designs and for a change I haven't even decided on my vote yet.

YWN choosing to go with a near perfect and seldom seen upkeep hose-approach and Male a very interesting and definitely unique approach.

Also as this is under my helm as the Contest Admin the contests should continue on unaffected by the Writer's Strike.

[Maleficent]

(I shall be arrogant to support my flavor - YES!)

Huh, I didn't think there'd be a contest, really :p YWN's is merely an upkeep cost, which can be paid and thus nullified (and when you have slivers like Gemstone Sliver around, the upkeep cost basically does nothing), and has been done before, and mine simply Nukes All Slivers on contact. Thus it is more unique and effective for the purpose intended.

By their lonesomes, with YWN's you get a 4/4 vanilla that you must pay 2U each turn for (icky and underpowered), and for mine you get a 3/4 unblockable for 1UU - an actual contender, and something Blue could use. With mine you can only have one; with YWN's you probably will only have one for the high cost, which also keeps you from playing other spells (and Blue likes to play spells - reason why Control decks need lots of mana).

Also, mine can be compared power-wise to that 2/2 unblockable guy for 1UU, whatever his name is. Ok, same mana cost, mine has +1/+2. That guy's uncommon and this is rare, so it has more right to be powerful - plus that guy just sucks. Downsides: Legendary (Savannah Lions to that 2/2 legend for W = +0/+1) + it dies whenever ANY Sliver comes into play (including changelings or any type-changers) - taking them with it. Nuking Slivers on its own isn't very powerful - anti-single creature type? Pfft. So overall, that ability adds/subtracts little. Thus it is a bit more powerful than that 2/2 guy, who sucks anyway.

For another note: You would never really need to play a second Arrogant Sliver. One is enough. Blue plays slow, and a guaranteed 3 damage per turn is what it's all about. You'll want to hold back the others in case your first gets killed, anyway.

And YWN has no rarity or flavor text :p PWNed.

Not to mention the one person to post in favor of YWN doesn't even know why. PWNed again! [/rant]

Thanks, Azrael :)

[Zaknifa]

I support YWN's Disrupting Sliver, for the fact that it alone could tie up a persons mana source, and even with Gemhide slivers that is a lot of mana. For example two gems, three sinews and a might sliver. That is 14 mana he has to produce. which not only times up his slivers but stops his land unless he gets rid of his pumping slivers. In the end it controls an opponent better then the arrogant liver in my opninon.

[ShaKadelic]

Voting for YWN, his sliver is simple but elegant.

[Saito Hajime]

I go for YWN. You did some good reasing Mal, but in the end it looks to me like this:

YWN's against slivers: tricky stuff will happen.

YWN's against non-slivers: a 4/4 that costs you 2U each turn. Not a thing blue has really done so far (more red or green) but worth thinking about since blue always heavily limits it's fatties. And blue's fatties start at 4/4 (if not at 3/3).

--> A medicore to quite good blue uncommon or common


Mal's against slivers: Works as a sorcery that kills each Sliver on the board.

Mal's against non-slivers: an unblockable 3/4 for a cost that first seems higher than YWN's because of double-U but then again is way cheaper because you don't repeatedly pay it. Now think about it again. A blue 3/4 for three. That's already not really going to make it near the "yeah that's blue" zone. In rare maybe (and it is one). And then: unblockable.

--> Comparing this to what's already there in blue and unblockable (and has a side-effect), this is, even considering it's legendary, way too powerful. It should cost around 3UU the least. (It's almost like Isamaru, Hound of Konda would cost :w: and read ":w:, Sacrifice Isamaru: Destroy all enchantments." and be a 2/3.)

And for the dying part of Mal's: Honestly, in an Extended format (or a Standard in a future where there are at that moment no slivers and changelings end EVEN IF) how often would Arrogant Sliver oppose a deck which kills it with the next creature that's coming? Or better: how often would it simply be a very heavy (and blue, mind you) smash in the op's face?

Sorry Mal.

[ThunderHog]

I actually support YWN on this one as well.

It doesn't actually CRIPPLE Sliver-usage like Mal's does, but instead it punishes the player(s) that are using Slivers - much like Plague Sliver. My entry actually did neither. My entry just made the abilities of Slivers pretty much useless.

Back on topic though... I'm also against the fact that there is now a mono-colored, Legendary Sliver. Only two Legendary Sliver exist in MTG, and both of them cost :w::u::b::r::g:. Personally, I think it should stay that way. Hence, the reason I voted for YWN.

Off topic for a moment... One thing I did find interesting is that Mal, YWN, and even myself all submitted a blue sliver. Lol.

[Exordio]

Considering the history I've seen so far the abilities of slivers I'm obliged to say that they retain a common hint of balance, much to my liking. The same happens with YWN's card, it hinders a sliver deck but does not destroy it like Mal's.

Considering cards in terms of enjoyablity I have to launch my vote for YWN's side here also because I feel it expresses a much more "Magic" feel.

Basically: my vote for YWN.

[Your Worst Nightmare]

I'm surprised there isn't any pandering going on trying to explain their cards and win votes over. Both are very nice designs and for a change I haven't even decided on my vote yet.
I can only speak for myself, but I've only been able to come online now. Defending my cards now is somewhat pointless, since 18 votes have already been cast. (Many thanks to all those who voted for me.) How many more frequent visitors are there to justify it now? I'll still do it anyway, mind you. What I mean to say is:

How about before you create the poll thread for each round, you first send the current Darksteel Designer and the contester the other one's cards. That way, they can write their opinion texts on their own cards and their opponent's, so they can be shown to the public in the very first post and not when the majority of votes have already been cast.

Just my two cents.



Defending my card:

Before I decided with Disrupting Sliver, I had a myriad of other ideas to choose from. They were:
-All Slivers have "Cumulative upkeep :1mana:." (Mana Chains)
-Prevent all damage that would be dealt by Slivers. (Muzzle)
-Whenever a Sliver creature is dealt damage, destroy it. It can't be regenerated. (Death Pits of Rath)
-All Sliver creatures have "This creature can't attack unless its controller pays :2mana:." (Brainwash/Ghostly Prison)
-If a Sliver creature would be dealt damage, instead its controller sacrifices that many permanents. (Dralnu, Lich Lord)

The first obvious one to cross out was the Ghostly Sliver, since it wasn't nearly effective enough. A Ghostly Prison itself would even be preferable in most cases anyway. Secondly, I decided to cross out Lich Sliver, since it resembled too much Yawg's card in the previous round of this contest. Besides, it couldn't get rid of Slivers by itself anyway, it'd always needed an additional card to be effective. The same applied to Death Pit Sliver as well, so I crossed that one out as well. Eventually, I realized Muzzling Sliver wouldn't be all that effective either, since certain Sliver decks can win without having to deal damage. Well, only a percentage of Sliver decks actually does that, and the card really appealed to me, but I knew there were better choices.
So in the end, I only had to choose between Chaining Sliver and Disrupting Sliver, which at the time actually read "unless you pay :2mana:." (More below.) Since cumulative upkeep :1mana:, although appealing, just wasn't fast enough to be threatening, and cumulative upkeep :2mana: would be pushing it, I ended up with Disrupting Sliver. But how did it go from :2mana: to "mana cost"?

Although some of you may believe it was because of Sliver tokens (which I also realized it was a good argument, but after I had already decided it to go that way. In case you don't know, tokens do not have a mana costs (unless of course the token has had such information tacked on it upon its creation), and like Evermind says, "Nonexistent mana costs can't be paid"), the actual reason for the change was just one: I wanted people to pay colored mana for their Muscle and Sinew Slivers. I believe those two are the most dangerous to face against, especially when they're both in the same deck, so I wanted players to pay :1mana::w: rather than :2mana:, just in case that white mana had come from a Gemhide Sliver. The fact that it made more expensive slivers... well, even more expensive was simply added bonuses. (But obviously well recieved. :))

And it IS the best choice. Vote for me, I promise to lower taxes! Also, cake for everybody! :D


And now, my opinion on Maleficent's card:

I won't lie. I could say his card is bad and unoriginal, but it isn't. It's actually quite creative and ingenious. There is, however, one problem with it in my view:

All Slivers have an equal base power and thoughness. Blade Sliver or Bonesplitting Sliver don't have less power so their own ability can compensate, and neither does Watcher Sliver have less thoughness so its own ability can compensate. Nope, they all have power equal to its thoughness, and then its ability kicks in. Even the Time Spiral block Slivers that were made after other existing creatures had their base power and thoughness changed so they could be equal and not the ones represented on the card they "drew inspiration" from. Witness: Frenetic Sliver being 2/2 while Frenetic Efreet's a 2/1; and Dormant Sliver being a 2/2 when Jungle Barrier's a 2/5.

Mal's Sliver, being 3/4, doesn't follow this trend. And the "it's a LEGENDARY sliver" excuse doesn't work because Sliver Queen, Sliver Overlord, and Sliver Legion are all legendary as well but still follow the same guideline.

Picky yes, but it's attention to details that separates good from genius. (Don't know where this is from, but it sounded cool. XD) Were it not for this, and I wouldn't really mind losing to his card.


And finnaly, refuting time:


YWN's is merely an upkeep cost, which can be paid and thus nullified (and when you have slivers like Gemstone Sliver around, the upkeep cost basically does nothing), and has been done before
If you DO have slivers like Gemhide Sliver, then my card becomes even better - a Sliver Stasis! What good are your slivers if they're constantly tapped?



By their lonesomes, with YWN's you get a 4/4 vanilla that you must pay 2U each turn for (icky and underpowered).

blah blah blah

With YWN's you probably will only have one for the high cost, which also keeps you from playing other spells (and Blue likes to play spells - reason why Control decks need lots of mana).
1- Blue doesn't necessarily mean control. There have been plenty of blue aggro decks over the years. Unstable Mutation ring a bell?
2- You also only want one Plague Sliver in play, if you don't want to be dealt 4 damage each turn. It didn't prevent the card from being considered 'better than the original', for the fact that it could be used in more than just beatdown decks. (The original being Juzam Djinn, obv.)
3- School of Piranha would like a word with you outside...



Not to mention the one person to post in favor of YWN doesn't even know why. PWNed again! [/rant]
One person? My fans are slow typers like me, but they're loyal. Where are YOUR loyal fans Mal? Oh, you don't have them? That's too bad... [/eric cartman]

[Grentain]

Only two Legendary Sliver exist in MTG, and both of them cost :w::u::b::r::g:.

Actually, there are three. Sliver Legion, Sliver Overlord and Sliver Queen.

[death by aggro]

Alright, here's a viable reason that I like YWN's card:

YWN's card can deal with Sivers both on the field and as they show up, whereas Mal's Siver is a one shot effect, and there's no guarunteeing after you blow up a Siver players initial swarm that you'll be able to draw another one of these and do it again, and even if you did, you've only got 4 of them. A person playing Sivers probably has at least a third of his deck Slivers. You wouldn't be able to go on offensive with Arrogant Sliver because then your opponent would just play another Sliver, blow it up, then re-swarm.

Not that Mal's card isn't cool and that I wouldn't play it simply for the borderline-ridiculous stats, but it just has holes as a solution to Slivers.

[Cashew]

I can only speak for myself, but I've only been able to come online now. Defending my cards now is somewhat pointless, since 18 votes have already been cast. (Many thanks to all those who voted for me.) How many more frequent visitors are there to justify it now? I'll still do it anyway, mind you. What I mean to say is:

How about before you create the poll thread for each round, you first send the current Darksteel Designer and the contester the other one's cards. That way, they can write their opinion texts on their own cards and their opponent's, so they can be shown to the public in the very first post and not when the majority of votes have already been cast.

Interesting thoughts and will ponder on it. I reserve my vote until I make up my mind fully, but many go with that first impression and vote straight on it. I'll be tinkering with this portion next week whether it be premade comments or a comment phase before the poll goes up.

[Maleficent]

@Saito, you forget that Arrogant Sliver's ability can be a drawback as well. If any creature gains changeling, or a changeling comes into play, or a type is changed to Sliver at all, Arrogant Sliver will die, taking the other thing with it. Your opponent could also change your creatures into Slivers, and it'd really screw you over then. Unlikely, sure, but certainly possible.


Back on topic though... I'm also against the fact that there is now a mono-colored, Legendary Sliver. Only two Legendary Sliver exist in MTG, and both of them cost WUBRG. Personally, I think it should stay that way. Hence, the reason I voted for YWN.

You, sir, are a disgrace to card design.


All Slivers have an equal base power and thoughness.

As are you! THERE ARE NO RULES!! XD


If you DO have slivers like Gemhide Sliver, then my card becomes even better - a Sliver Stasis! What good are your slivers if they're constantly tapped?

They would only need to tap some of them, while the others pound your face in. Gemhide just makes it a lot easier to keep more in play, thus granting more abilities, and thus rendering your tactic useless.


1- Blue doesn't necessarily mean control. There have been plenty of blue aggro decks over the years. Unstable Mutation ring a bell?

Oh, yeah, because Blue Aggro is just tearing up the meta :rolleyes:


2- You also only want one Plague Sliver in play, if you don't want to be dealt 4 damage each turn. It didn't prevent the card from being considered 'better than the original', for the fact that it could be used in more than just beatdown decks. (The original being Juzam Djinn, obv.)

Only in that it's Anti-Slivers... which isn't saying a whole lot. Anti-changelings, maybe. Plus, Plague Sliver won't blow up when another Sliver comes into play :p


3- School of Piranha would like a word with you outside...

And what would the fishies like to say? That you stole their ability? :p


One person? My fans are slow typers like me, but they're loyal. Where are YOUR loyal fans Mal? Oh, you don't have them? That's too bad... [/eric cartman]

:rotf:

Of course not; I drift with the winds and conquer all I see, sowing chaos and destruction in my wake!


YWN's card can deal with Sivers both on the field and as they show up, whereas Mal's Siver is a one shot effect, and there's no guarunteeing after you blow up a Siver players initial swarm that you'll be able to draw another one of these and do it again, and even if you did, you've only got 4 of them. A person playing Sivers probably has at least a third of his deck Slivers. You wouldn't be able to go on offensive with Arrogant Sliver because then your opponent would just play another Sliver, blow it up, then re-swarm.

You're only thinking on the surface. A deck isn't going to consist soley of Arrogant Sliver, and it would play for the long game. Arrogant Sliver vs. a Sliver deck is like Wrath of God against any aggro deck: It PWNs. Granted, that's very narrow, but it's also a potential win condition against non-Slivers. w00t. Also, if you'll see what Cashew wanted the Sliver to do (get rid of all the Slivers in the castle), you'll see that mine does this far more effectively. ;)

I second YWN's idea about constructing an argument beforehand.

[Your Worst Nightmare]

As are you! THERE ARE NO RULES!! XD
Sure, let's all make trolls without regeneration because that's how it's flavorful; or maybe walls without defender since there are no rules. Or maybe a shapeshifter that has given up mimicry? Now THERE'S a winner!



They would only need to tap some of them, while the others pound your face in. Gemhide just makes it a lot easier to keep more in play, thus granting more abilities, and thus rendering your tactic useless.
Then I suggest you grab a sliver deck (netdeck, if necessary), and imagine my card is in play. See for yourself just how USELESS your Gemhide Slivers will be.



Oh, yeah, because Blue Aggro is just tearing up the meta :rolleyes:
I merely said they existed, not that it was tier 1... :paranoid:

[death by aggro]

When are we gonna know who got nominated as the next challenger?

[Cashew]

If I can start and finish it tonight it'll be done - if not depends.

I had a friend pass away last night found out the hard way. I was at work in the 911 Center when the call came in - one of the first to know. Personally my first time working here that I've been in the situation where I'm not allowed to tell anyone else because of notifying his family and word of mouth, etc. Yet the guy spent part of Thanksgiving with our family and friends and we all know him pretty well.

So basically my real life will be tied up with this for the weekend. Maybe Sunday if people leave and I have time, maybe not. The best I can assert at this time is at the latest it'll be ready by Tuesday morning before you're even out of bed.

[Cashew]

By the way it's a 1 point margin of victory right now. I placed my vote for YWN, because in the end I admired that I could trace the evolution of his Sliver. Male said it all when he said "Yeah, giving a card an upkeep. That's been done before." To me this is the heart of Sliverdom - taking what has already been done and metamorphizing into one monster out of control tribe.

Sliver's by nature are not your most orginial creatures, they're walking generic beasties that follow the archetypes of color and the cards past. Except for the artifact (fake slivers) and the Legends, not much is innovative about them. It's one feeding the next, and the next feeding another, all things we've already seen before.

EDIT: Update - most entries are done - but won't go live until at least Friday. Simply ran out of time last night.

[ShaKadelic]

Sorry about your pal, take your time Cashew, patience shall guide us over the weekend.

[death by aggro]

Indeed, and I apologize if I came out rash, it's just normally your right on top of these things, and your lack of response worried me. Take your time, friend; the contest isn't that important. Little is.

[guest1234]

Honestly I dislike both cards. Making every sliver a 3/4 unblockable is not a sliver hoser, it's the best sliver ever! And the recurring upkeep seems waaayy too powerful. I guess I'll vote that one.

[Maleficent]

Making every sliver a 3/4 unblockable is not a sliver hoser, it's the best sliver ever!

Reading is tech. :p All Slivers also become copies of that Sliver, and because of its Legendary status, they all die.

[death by aggro]

Is everything all right Cashew?

[Cashew]

The results are in - read all up in the blogs. (http://www.magicdeckvortex.com/blog/?p=70) sorry for the delay. Next round will be up sometime early tomorrow morning.

[Maleficent]

FOR THE [ORDER]! We shall forever reign SUPREME! XD (So ah Ryu, you next? :p)


By the way it's a 1 point margin of victory right now. I placed my vote for YWN, because in the end I admired that I could trace the evolution of his Sliver. Male said it all when he said "Yeah, giving a card an upkeep. That's been done before." To me this is the heart of Sliverdom - taking what has already been done and metamorphizing into one monster out of control tribe.

Arr, you said yourself in the article this holds true for all Slivers - except Legendary Slivers (and Artifact Slivers) ;) but oh well. Glad to see you're back :D how goes it?

[Oblivion]

FOR THE [ORDER]! We shall forever reign SUPREME! XD (So ah Ryu, you next? :p)

Oh yeah man!! We make the bestest cards ever!!! I so did not expect to win.

So, come on Mal, bring it!

[Tynion]

Can you believe my luck? I didn't copy the entire creature description when I sent it in to Cashew. It should have been a 2/2 lol. :P

[Cashew]

Yeah it also gave me a headache thinking of the logistics of playing it. Slivers becoming enchantments and having no way back - how abilities are retained - are they still a Sliver as enchantment. Etc, etc.

[death by aggro]

I can't beleive I'm the only one that thought of making a Non-Sliver Sliver. It can attack the Hive and steal from it's power because even though it appears to be a Sliver but it really isn't. Still, I suppose I'll have to keep improving if I want my spot back.

[Ryuzaki]

Yeah I don't know, I guess it being a common sliver hoser was why it costed so much.

Hmmm. Sure Mal, I'll be next. Tradition and all right?

[Sensei kakashi]

An un card? What the hell... Just because it has an Un sounding name does not automatically make it an un card... *grumbles*

[Maleficent]

Oh yeah man!! We make the bestest cards ever!!! I so did not expect to win.

So, come on Mal, bring it!

That was a nice idea you had, though. :D

Oh, I will! :devil:


Yeah I don't know, I guess it being a common sliver hoser was why it costed so much.

:( Well, considering changelings, type-changing and whatnot, it could be a pretty sick card, completely shutting down everything if you do it right - for when killing simply isn't enough. Like Shields of Velis Vel on a stick :p *shrugs*

[ThunderHog]

FOR THE [ORDER]! We shall forever reign SUPREME! XD (So ah Ryu, you next? :p)

I'm hoping that I am. :D

The Order will always win this competition... Mwhahaha!

[Sensei kakashi]

>.> [Karma enters in]

You do know when the order does lose, it's all becuase you said that Thunder... Tsk tsk tsk...

[ThunderHog]

Nope. It's gonna be because there's no more Order members left who haven't been DsD at least once. :P

[Your Worst Nightmare]

2) Slivers still gain +X/+X bonuses since they aren’t abilities.
Yes they are. Anything written in a card's text box that's not italiced (meaning flavor text and reminder text - exactly, reminder! Not actual rules text) is an ability. Abilities include triggered abilities, activated abilities, and static abilities. NOT keyword abilities as they're always included in one of the three previous groups. (Ex.: Bushido is a triggered ability, Ninjutsu is an activated ability, and haste is a static ability.) Or do you seriously think Sinew Sliver gets boosted by Muraganda Petroglyphs??



Antique Sliver 5
Legendary Artifact Creature- Sliver
All Slivers have Vanishing X, where X is equal to their converted mana cost.(This ability remains on all slivers even if Antique sliver is in the graveyard.)
1/1
“Patience, eventually they’ll all be dust”

I like the idea, the mana cost is high, the reasoning is there to keep it alive if you remove the graveyard statement in the end, it acts like a Necroplasm erasing creatures from existence. My issue is that it kind of defies Sliver logic by remaining in effect from the grave. Would have been an interesting solid entry without that whole bit.
Actually, it doesn't. At least not for Slivers already in play. This creature gives the Vanishing ability to all Slivers, but doesn't provide those Slivers with vanishing counters. Vanishing implies that the creatures COMES INTO PLAY with those counters. If the slivers are already in play, nothing happens. Counters don't magically appear out of thin air if no ability creates them.
And no, vanishing isn't fading. Note the wording on vanishing. The sacrificing trigger happens when the last counter is removed, not when the creature has no counters left. (The reason the Waning Wurm + Ovinize combo works.) Hence, this Sliver does absolutely NOTHING to slivers already in play. Necroplasm my behind.

And no, the effect doesn't stick around after the creature dies. If the source giving the vanishing ability is no longer in play, it no longer gives the vanishing ability, duh! Even if the Sliver gave time counters upon entering play, those time counters are redundant if the vanishing ability that uses them isn't around as well.


Only two errors this time. You're improving Cashew! XD

[Cashew]

Hmm, but the issue is the base Slivers retain their abilities. In the instance of Sinew Sliver, the ability it has is a power toughness boost. The question is - is the other Slivers getting +1/+1 an ability or an effect at that point. In the end, look at Petroglphys itself. It grants +2/+2 to those with no abilities. If the +2/+2 from glpyhs was an ability then the creature would lose it because it gained an ability - making the card pointless. Hence, the +1/+1 from Sinew, the +1/+1 from muscle etc. don't qualify as abilities and are still retained. The issue here was each card retains it's own abilities and in the case of the static +X/+X they still get granted because they aren't seen as abilities to the other Slivers.

Vanishing counters blah! The vanishing does stick around though because of the wording - (This ability remains on all slivers even if Antique sliver is in the graveyard.) Basically he designed it to work from the grave.

I'll have to not rush it next round, but it wouldn't be out yet if I hadn't.

[Your Worst Nightmare]

Hmm, but the issue is the base Slivers retain their abilities. In the instance of Sinew Sliver, the ability it has is a power toughness boost. The question is - is the other Slivers getting +1/+1 an ability or an effect at that point. In the end, look at Petroglphys itself. It grants +2/+2 to those with no abilities. If the +2/+2 from glpyhs was an ability then the creature would lose it because it gained an ability - making the card pointless. Hence, the +1/+1 from Sinew, the +1/+1 from muscle etc. don't qualify as abilities and are still retained. The issue here was each card retains it's own abilities and in the case of the static +X/+X they still get granted because they aren't seen as abilities to the other Slivers.
What did I wrote in my previous post? An ability is anything written in a card's text box that's not italiced! Are power and thoughness in the text box? Are the little numbers you see in the bottom-right corner of each creature card IN the text box? Thought so.

Then we know power and thoughness are not related to the creature's abilities. Then effects that alter those little numbers will stay away from the text box, won't they? After all, if they did mess around with the text box, Muraganda Petroglyphs wouldn't even work at all! Then we agree so far.

But where do those effects that alter said little numbers in said corner come from? They don't grow on trees, that's for sure. Could it be they come FROM AN ABILITY??? Yes, that must be it. An ABILITY generates an effect that in a certain way messes with one or more creatures' power and/or thoughness, but unless it says so, it won't fiddle with those creatures' texts boxes. So we can conclude that creatures affected by that effect don't gain any additional abilities, but the origin of that effect must have an ability itself, otherwise the effect wouldn't exist in the first place, right? BINGO!

I mean, not even poor Kobolds of Kher Keep gets boosted by the Petroglyphs because it has "Kobolds of Kher Keep is red" in the text box, an ability that doesn't even affect anything, it's simply characterizing the card itself! Look at the Official Rulings in Muraganda Petroglyphs's gatherer page for christ's sake!

C'mon Cashew, you're running this thing! You should know better than that...

[Cashew]

Sometimes YWN I wonder if you even know what you're arguing. You're arguing currently that a Sliver that still has the ability all "Slivers have +1/+0" doesn't give the +1/+0 to other Slivers because Slivers don't have abilities that aren't their own. I'm just curious, do you utlimately miscontrue everything so you always appear right or - is it in this case an easy chance to say "Oh."

Yes Sinew Sliver's "All sliver have +1/+1" is an ability. But in the card in question creatures don't lose their own abilities. Hence all the Slivers are going to get that +1/+1 because they don't lose a static effect that isn't an ability on anything but the orginial which is ineffected.