Darksteel Designer - Round 1 - Entries

[Cashew]

Who should be Lord Kaga's pick?

http://www.10-73.com/images/dd_01/YawgCard1.jpghttp://www.10-73.com/images/dd_01/DBACard.jpg

Remember if you submitted an entry and want to be the next challenger - voting is MANDATORY. Read Lord Kaga's comments in the blog (http://www.magicdeckvortex.com/blog/?p=42).

Voting Ends - This poll will close on 12-13-2007 at 02:40 AM - Also accepting entries to be the next competitor until that point.

[Sensei kakashi]

So... we will get to see the other entries then after this yes? Cool...

Also, would it be possible to get the artit's name from now on then? I mean I would love to give the proper credit where it is due but I mean come on... Don;t know about you, but I can find the same image online in at least 100 different sites. Hard to tell who actually drew it right.

AND... Lastly... >.> *waves a DBA flag*

[Cashew]

I'd be impressed if you can find this image on several sites - Benjamin Eiband is Ben who posts primarily and very infrequently in the Custom Cards and Art sets. I credited him as Ben - but if you saw the card example I had it had his full name. I shall try to include artist names for all Artwork related cards in the future - as I'm a firm believer in crediting the artist and getting permission.

[gamerpunk666]

archosaur is alot worse, what if i have no untapped swamps and something dies? see you just lost a very expensive creautre?

[Yawgmoth]

I guess the card-creators are not supposed to vote? I will assume, yes.

I would make some comments on dba's and my own card, but I guess that would look bad. So I will wait for the poll to be over. Let the best Phyrexian win!

[Cashew]

archosaur is alot worse, what if i have no untapped swamps and something dies? see you just lost a very expensive creautre?


Actually, that is one of the balancing aspects of the card. Pestilence style cards need some form of control or else they easily can become an instant "I have more life and thus win" cards. There's a lot of power in Yawg's card imagine against a Thallid or Token deck - could easily generate 10 damage with a simple tap.

[Sensei kakashi]

Personally I think it should take two to regenerate... Just for that reason... Probably the deciding factor between the two in my opinion... Especially because of the sac thing... Or to even make them two separate abilities wouldn't hurt.

As for the Morbium, I like the high cost. But I think it should in some way have to deal directly with the creatures. Either by an activation cost, or by having to have dealt it damage.
i also think the Legendary thing comes into play here. I personally think they both should be legendary. But that's just my opinion.

Also, Can I ask a ruling question?

Say there are 4 1/1 in play, the archosaur's ability resolves. Those 4 die. Does it then do another 4 damage? And does it do it all at once, or one at a time? Meaning, if it does do 4 woudl it have to reg once or 4 times? And if it does do 4 wouldn't it pretty much end up being a Damnation if there are multiple 1/1s out??

Tell me that does not deserve to be legendary...

Also are we allowed to talk about the cards? I mean even the judges on Iron Chef get to talk while they eat right?

[Cashew]

By all means discuss. If you actually look at it the Skeletal Archesaur is far more interesting to me - compare to Vengeful Dead. It can easily wrack up the damage, but can also be equally hard to keep in play - meaning I don't really think the Legendary status is necessary and the following shows why :b: is fine for an ability cost - imagine this is the field:

You: Skeletal Archosaur - 1/1 creature 2/2 creature 5/5 creature - 5 untapped swamps
Them: 10 tapped forests 1/1, 1/1, 1/1, 2/2

- Terror is cast on the 2/2 - Skeletal Archosaur triggers dealing 1 damage to all
- Archosaur Regenerates, Stack fills with other */1's deaths
Stack: 1/1, 1/1, 1/1, 1/1
- Arhcosaur Regenerates, Stack fills with all */2's deaths
Stack: 1/1, 1/1, 1/1, 2/2
- Archosaur Regenerates, Stack fills with all */3's deaths
Stack: 1/1, 1/1, 2/2
- Archosaur Regenerates, Stack fills with all */4's deaths
Stack: 1/1, 2/2
- Archosaur Regenerates, Stack fills with all */5's deaths
Stack: 2/2, 5/5
- Archosaur Dies, Stack fills with all */6's deaths
Stack: 5/5
- Stack fills with all */7's deaths
Stack: Empty

Total Damage - 7 to each player - with no sacrifices.

Due to the wording I was initially wrong - Archosaur dieing shouldn't generate a ping. I do believe.

The regenerate thing is a boon and a bust. It allows for the Archosaur to fire off a ping storm, but it also requires mana to be available at all times or else the Archosaur easily dies because any permenant death will kill the Archosaur. This is an extremely balancing effect as with Pestilence you must have a creature alive to pump at will - with Archosaur you must have mana to keep it alive.

This is what intrigued me about the card as it was ultimately balanced yet had a high power potential output limited only by you and almost necessary mana feeding.

[Sensei kakashi]

Yeah but the "You may sacrafice a permanent" thing costing only one AND giving the Lizard the first time regen all at once for B seems overkill. I still think it needs to cost either BB or be two seperate abilities...

[Cashew]

I have to full-heartedly agree there. The sacrifice at the least could have been:
:0mana:: Sacrifice a permenant.
or
:b:: Sacrifice a permenant.

[Sensei kakashi]

What... Cashew gets to vote? no fair... >.> *cough*

[ThunderHog]

I didn't submit an entry since I didn't think we were supposed to - accursed not reading everything - but I did vote. I find the Archosaur to be so much more useful. Damnation anyone? :D

[Yawgmoth]

Originally Skeletal Archosaur had "Sacrifice a permanent: Regenerate Skeletal Archosaur" but due to some problems and the fact that it would not work as people would think it would forced me to change it. I could have given it more time and tried some different ways than the Regen with sacrifice added, but alas - Time was not within my grasp. (Making the sacrifice-ability another ability entirely was not an option for me, it would have been inelegant. His ability to "re-attach" broken bones and spread pestilence had to be very close.)

@ThunderHog: Read Cashew's first post again.

[Sensei kakashi]

Just seems to me a little unbalanced when you can have 4 of these out, pay one black, and wipe the board clean. Not to mention deal massive damage to all players.

[Luthervamplord]

My vote goes to Yawgmoth for flavor reasons - No offense DBA but that ability has been played to death, bit of a 'safe play' on your behalf and that's not my style.

Yawg's gone for a twist; not many abilities take advantage of a 'may' clause, and none to mind twin that clause with it's own ability. Yes, the regen is FAR too cheap but the necessity to have to constantly use this ability to keep the guy around due to a 1 toughness means that you will possibly be paying 3 - 5 black mana a turn just to keep this guy around means that it really isn't THAT cheap.

Oh, and BTW: Archosaur + Blood Pet + Enduring Renewal = WIN

[Saito Hajime]

Though there's lots of talk which I didn'T read all going on about Yawg's card and it might be very powerful and then again not and this and that, left to right, up and down and on and on - though this might be, I find DBA's card a bit too simplistic. It's good, it works, it's Adarkar Valkyrie or Scion of Darkness or both and nothing at the same time but it's still quite simple. A bitt too simple for my taste and for this art.

Generally I have to say that I don't get the feeling of the whole thing being a creature. If it was a creature, don't you thing there'd be at least some kind of magical eyeballs or so, giving more live to the thing or a bit more movement or action in the picture. It's good art, no doubt, it just doesn't feel like a creature to me.

that said, I'll look to make an own version, send it to Cash and hopefully be the next challenger.

[Cashew]

If you want to participate THunderhog, others -there is still time. The poll is not closed until 12/13 Get your entry to me before then.

[ThunderHog]

Oh, cool. Well, in that case, my entry is done. I'll PM it to you.

[Your Worst Nightmare]

@Sk, for each 1 damage that would be dealt to Skeletal Archosaur, you need to pay :b: for it to survive. So if you activate the ability once, and get to kill 4 saprolings, you need to pay :b::b::b::b: if you want the Archosaur to stay in play.

And making it legendary would actually make it better. Have one in play, play another, and both die and trigger their and the other's abilities.

Besides, who plays 1/1 tokens anyway? Only white, green, or white+green decks! And black hates white and green!

And dba's card is cool too. XD

[Sensei kakashi]

Hey quick question... I seem to remember reading the contestants had to Vote "For the winning card" in order to qualify for next challenger. If that is true can I change my vote? :| Dang popularity contests...



Besides, who plays 1/1 tokens anyway? Only white, green, or white+green decks! And black hates white and green!

Oh please.. this card screams BG. Get a few saprolings. Two of the lizards. One tendrils. And 20+ damage for the win. Simple. Which is why it should be legendary. At least.

[Yawgmoth]

B/G? The dinosaurs cost three coloured mana each, and I do not think "legendary" should be a balancing tool. The art is nowhere near legendary, it doesn't look like an unique individual in anyway. It doesn't even look sentient.

I think the frailty of the Archosaur and the fact that he kills himself with his own ability (and you thus need to regenerate him each time his ability triggers, like YWN said) is balancing enough. However, if playtesting proved that he degenerated a format, increasing costs would be necessary. As he is now, though, he feels elegant and balanced (to me.)

[Sensei kakashi]

to each his own I suppose. I take simplicity yet legitimacy over elegance any day.

[ThunderHog]

The dinosaurs cost three coloured mana each, and I do not think "legendary" should be a balancing tool. The art is nowhere near legendary, it doesn't look like an unique individual in anyway. It doesn't even look sentient.

Funny, I didn't even see it as a creature at all let alone Legendary. I made it an enchantment. :D

[Yawgmoth]

@ThunderHog: I think it is too focused on the head of the thing to not be a creature, most of the art is a giant skeleton - you don't see any action or any events. Thus I think it fits best as a creature, it would not be fair to call it anything else. Just like Whipoorwill (spelling?) not having flying, it confuses you when you quick-read it.

@Sensei Kakashi: What reason would there be for design if not elegance? Beauty is a card's most important aspect. Also, like Yawgmoth said unto Urza: "risk it all and slay his very heart." Pestilence-effects are always risky, trying to make it interesting - yet not overly powerful is a hard path to walk.

[death by aggro]

Although I'm not sure if Yawg's card would see print as-is if it went through R&D, I must admit I like his card better than mine. Morbium is flavorful and elegant in simplicity, but honestly Yawg's card is too good to pass up. I suppose I must remember this should we meet in combat again.:E New smilies! W00T!:umm:

[Your Worst Nightmare]

Oh please.. this card screams BG. Get a few saprolings. Two of the lizards. One tendrils. And 20+ damage for the win. Simple. Which is why it should be legendary. At least.
20 damage for the loss, is more accurate. With you killing yourself in the process as well.

But Tendrils?? o.O Why would that card be in a deck like that???

(Hint: If you're going to name a card by only the first word of its name, make sure it isn't a word that's directly connotated to another, completely different card. TEPS much?)

[Sensei kakashi]

Oh im so sorry you cannot figure out which of the three tendrils I meant... ohh woe is me! poor Sk and his bad wording! bad lama... *Hits self*[/sarcasm]

@ Yawgy: I totally agree yours is a heck of a lot more interesting. A lot more thought seems to have went into yours. I guess I just look at cards differently then most :( My loss I suppose.

Also, I too did not see it as a creature. i myself made it a land. A pretty sick awesome land if I say so myself... And Elegance? Oh... I think mine is pretty dang elegant... Like... Take a painting, a statue, a rose, and.. a dead rotting skeleton and throw it together... that is like my card in a nutshell... (Nutshell not included)

[Yawgmoth]

Yay! I'm winning! Happy happy! (Sorry dba :/)

Also, Sensei: Wizards would never print this as anything else than a creature, as the skeleton's right arm is moving - thus it has to be a creature. The skeleton is also too much in focus, it's head is in the center of the picture and it looks like it is roaring or something similar. Since most of the frame is filled with a giant dragon-skeleton that is moving, printing it as something that is not a moving dragon-skeleton would be cruel. A game of this needs some sort of uniformity for it to make sense.

(Note: What good would Tendrils do in that scenario? (and again: :b::b::b: in a two-coloured deck?))

[Sensei kakashi]

Tendrils of Corruption people... dangit... Is it that hard to figure out?

secondly... Green= mana excel... BBB not that hard....

[Yawgmoth]

Sensei, don't take it to seriously - we were obviously kidding on the Tendrils-thing. But there is a point, you shouldn't refer to the less famous of a pair (or more) of cards when you are just using the first word. Tendrils most of the time stands for Tendrils of Agony.

[Cashew]

Anywho looks like Yawg is a lock = congratulations. I really think it had to do with your card having a more subtle and intriguing ability while DBA's is full of power. Please remember the demographic here - lots of Johnny/Timmys - If you want to win you may have to appease them. Bring the juice, but remember to put a little fruit and umberralla on the rim for that extra oomph. Our next challenger and the official announcment of the current Darksteel Designer will happen tonight - followed by the new challenge tomorrow.

Each week's challenege will be different than the last, and I'll give you a heads up now and a heads up later to prepare. Make sure you understand Aspect of Mongoose.

[death by aggro]

As I said, I saw this coming, but now big loss; I now know what kind of a crowd I'm vying for, so all this means is I'll simply have to keep that in mind next time. After all, I didn't get through 6+ years of magic without having been beaten to the curb many, many times. Besides, I really look forward to what Yawgmoth will cook up next. Congrats to you, clan leader!:E

[Sensei kakashi]

Sensei, don't take it to seriously - we were obviously kidding on the Tendrils-thing. But there is a point, you shouldn't refer to the less famous of a pair (or more) of cards when you are just using the first word. Tendrils most of the time stands for Tendrils of Agony.

Oh.. see i only knew of Corruption... Yeah yeah I'm a noob! But yeah.. I'll make sure to spell it out for you old guy's next time :P

kidding... kidding....

[Cashew]

The hopefuls' critique and praise can now be found in the Blog (http://www.magicdeckvortex.com/blog/?p=45). Along with next week's challenger. Stay tuned tomorrow to the blog for Round 2.

[Yawgmoth]

Yay, does this mean I am an indestructible designer now?

[ThunderHog]

Awww... C'mon... I didn't think the flavor text was THAT bad. :(

[Sensei kakashi]

Man... I wish you woulda told me not to use future sight frames... *Sighs* it's like playing Monopoly without reading the rules... only it's more like rules not included...

>.> Damn you YWN... *goes to cry under bed*

[Cashew]

Lord Kaga is a cruel cruel man. The only way to figure him out is to play and pay attention as the weeks go on.

[Sensei kakashi]

Yes he is... Cruel... sword wielding... tofu eating... bad bad mans... He is so my hero T_T

[Cashew]

If only you could dub forum posts.

[Kinghonkey]

* Artist name should never be the card designer unless he is the artist.
* Good usage of tribal, unfortunately the correct tribe for those abilities is Dauthi. This became clear with the creature revamping prior to Time Spiral when Dauthi became the tribe for black shadow creatures.
* Last sentence is better worded as “that creature” or simply “it” in lieu of “the creature”
* Haste and shadow should not be capitalized in that text.
* Casting cost is far too high, please reference Goryo’s Vengeance that is at similar power level with this.
* Flavor text is interesting, but the wording seems slightly off. Not bad, but not quite impressive.


1.) My apologies. As an artist, I would never willingly try to take credit for anyone else's art, however, I had no idea this was Ben's, many of us didn't.

2.) I used Zombie tribal for flavor sake. It could be used for recursion shenanigans with Lord of The Undead or Unholy Grotto. Is it possible to have two tribal card types? Changelings, I would suppose. Dauthi Ghoul is a Dauthi and a Zombie. It could have been anything really, like il dal, il-vec, a demon like Stronghold Overseer, or a spirit like Nether Traitor. Saying it should have been Dauthi is subjective, which Lord Kaga is, I would suppose. Dauthi would be the most correct tribe for Shadow, but I wanted to do zombies. I prefer flavorful zombies over conventionality any day.

3.) Casting cost may be a bit too high. Again, it can be used with zombie recursion and gives any creature (not just legends, not just the _top_ creature of your graveyard like Corpse dance ) haste _and_ shadow as well. I did look at Goryo's vengeance before I made this and thought the flexibility of my card warranted an increased casting cost.

4.) My flavor text is pretty darned clever.

I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest, just defending my recipe. The rest of your critique is valid.

[Cashew]

1.) My apologies. As an artist, I would never willingly try to take credit for anyone else's art, however, I had no idea this was Ben's, many of us didn't.


Made that worded harshly for a reason. I see far too many people make cards and put their name as the artist when they just blatantly rip it off from somewhere. To have figured out Ben's you would have had pay attention in my example and the similarity to the banner I carry. No It was never expressly said, it was a slip of my mind to mention the artist - I even asked for his permission to use it in this context.

Big thing to learn and I want to teach all people on this site. Artist's Name is for the Artist's Name not the card designer. Although you may feel this critque hits you because it's your card it was a general message sent. With artwork I try to get permission always and give proper credit. By the way, making any headway on that artwork for Saito's card or is the holiday season slamming you like it is for me?


2.) I used Zombie tribal for flavor sake.
Aye, I just have a hard time attributing Shadow to any tribal line beyond Dauthi. Zombie's have that general recurison theme and Fear. For the most part I would classify the following tribes with Shadow:
Major Theme of: Dauthi, Thakalos, Soltari
Sub-Theme of: Rogue
Minor-Theme of: Spirit

Cannot count the following tribes for themes: Humans (defined by their class), Wall, Sliver, Shapeshifter

A few other tribes get splashes but in your cause Dauthi is the reason for the Shadow not Zombie. Just couldn't and still really can't buy a Tribal Zombie card selling Shadow. I would have bought Spirit or Dauthi - but as a Zombie card it probably would have been best suited as Fear + Haste.


3.) Casting cost may be a bit too high

Aye the difference between yours & Goryo:
+ Power Level: Shadow
+ Power Level: Legendary restriction removed
- Power Level: Splice Recursion removed

In the end, you can rule it down the main power level difference being Shadow as an almost direct hit. Goryo is :1mana::b: you'rs is :2mana::b::b: I felt a more appropriate cost could have been :1mana::b::b: or :2mana::b:. Especially at the rare level, although there is heavy arguing point for :3mana::b:.


4.) My flavor text is pretty darned clever.

I'm not saying it's not clever, it felt like a good obvious conclusion for the flavor text - apt and fitting. I just simply meant that there was something tiny, something small missing from making it outright impressive. It bothered me a lot because it was good, and seemed like the tiny change could make it utterly amazing. I think what bothers me even more - I still can't put my finger on what that change might be!



To all - Please argue, please debate, but as KH did keep it constructive.. This is half the reason for the contest - a fun weekly design workshop - see where we end up. The little things in the end do matter - after all if Black Lotus cost :1mana: to cast it'd simply be a better Dark Ritual. The littlest difference in a wording or mana cost can drastically change the playability and power of a card.

[Kinghonkey]

Cashew,
I sent Saito a private message about the artwork for his Planeswalker, asking if he wanted to see it and ok it before I got on to the painting part. I'm working on it, and it's going well. I hope to have it done before Christmas, if not, then definitely before New Years.

I've been very busy....school kids are nuts the last week before Christmas vacation.

[Cashew]

Yeah, I know it goes taught High School for a year - never again - never again. Hopefully the carding process will go well.