PDA

View Full Version : Thoughts on Beatdown



GRUNT
01-08-2006, 08:06 AM
*When I started writing this, I didn't know it was going to turn into a bit of a rant, so read at your own risk :D

Being a fan of Green and huge stompy creatures, I'm looking very forward to the Gruul in Guildpact. However, as I've mentioned in another thread, I find beatdown difficult to play with in today's environment. Well, actually, I suppose it's easier to play than it was a couple years back.....green was really terrible, and it feels like it's only now that Green's coming up to truly match the other colours.

I say this because of cards like Plated Slagwurm, Troll Ascetic, Giant Solifuge....very solid creatures that really throw a wrench into a control player's plans. The problem is that Green has a history of anti-control critters that are ONLY good against....well, a control deck. Take Scragnoth for example....5 mana for a 3/4 that can't be countered and has protection from blue. That makes him pretty much good only for a sideboard.

On the other hand, Giant Solifuge is just too awesome. A critter that I can easily get out on turn 3 if I'm playing any deck with green, that has haste AND trample to boot! In my opinion, Green really needs more creatures like these.

Maybe it's just because I'm a beatdown player, but creature removal seems too easy these days. Let's think about the following opening hand:

Forest
Forest
Llanowar Elves
Sakura Tribe Elder
Gleancrawler
Silverback Ape
Kavu Titan

I'd consider this a good opening hand. I have something to cast each turn. On my first, Llanowar elves, on my second, Sakura-Tribe Elder (and I can attack with my elf), on my third, I can drop either a Silverback Ape, or a Kavu Titan....both are nice meaty 5/5 threats.

The problem that those threats are few. A good part of your deck is going to be lands and mana-accelerators, so maybe only about 30 cards in your deck are the big, fat meaty creatures you're after.

Now, if I were to face a mono blue deck, I'd be in for some serious trouble. A blue player would know that my elves and stuff arent any threat, it's my big stompy creatures that win the game, and since we're all drawing the same amount of cards, its not as if I'm going to be able to cast more creatures than he can counterspell. But yeah, in a real-life situation, he'd probably be drawing more cards since....well...he's BLUE! What hurts even more is how blue can really slow you down. Cards like Manowar can really mess up your tempo...especially if you just casted a fatty like Gleancrawler.

Blue isn't the only colour that can do control, though....I'm just using it as the example here because well.....I guess it's the 'main antagonist' :). White is annoying too with stuff like Devouring Light and Wrath of God. Black can play that game too- Nekrataals, Slay, Dark Banishing, etc.

The point is, ESPECIALLY against something like Wrath of God, what defence does Green have? Your best bet is something like Pattern of Rebirth, or Greater Good, so you can at least sac some of your fatties for cards. However, control decks are all about...well, control. A simple dismiss can get rid of a much-needed Greater Good- denying you any card advantage you might have against a blue foe. Really, in a Green vs Blue match, it's not so much gaining a card advantage over the blue so much as it is desperately trying to keep up with him. In a situation like this, even my beloved untargetable critters like Giant Solifuge aren't saved.

This brings me to Guildpact and Petrified Wood-Kin. A 7-mana critter whose power and toughness is based on a condition that may be difficult to meet doesn't sound that great. By that time, your opponent may have cleaned the board of your critters, or at least had gotten rid of only the ones that could really hurt him, so that his own creatures can prevent any damage from going through with what you have left.

What is needed here is a card....a creature, I would think, that can deal damage to my opponent mana-lessly. Something like Vulshok Sorcerer, I guess. Or in Ravnica's case- Viashino Fangtail will have to do. On one hand, it'd be better than this make-believe artifact that looks like this:

Cube of Blah - 3
Artifact
During your Upkeep, Cube of Blah deals 1 damage to target opponent.

Ok, fine....that doesn't look too bad, but the point is that besides killing your opponent after 20 turns, that thing doesn't really 'do' anything, and if you're playing a red/green deck, odds are, you won't have card advantage that can compare to other colours, so you really have to make cards count! Is the Cube of Blah worth putting into a deck just for the garauntee of Bloodthirst? To me, building a green deck is always time-consuming. Every non-creature card I put in means that I'm that much less likely to draw a stompy creature when I need to.

When I first saw Silverback Ape, I was amazed. 5 mana for a 5/5 creature.....no other abilities attached. This card is what green is all about. Personally, I feel that Green creatures really need to be strong. 5 mana for a 5/5 should not be uncommon for Green, and I was disappointed that he's not in 9th ed. Plated Slagwurm is one of my all-time favourite green cards because if you're building a huge stompy deck, you really want to have an 8/8 for 7 mana in your deck. You're green! 7 mana isn't hard to get :P. The fact that he's untargetable only to your opponents makes him even greater! I'm wondering why he's worth so little money :P.

Now, I'm not saying that all of green's creatures should be untargetabble, because that would be downright absurd. But playing Green is (along with red) the most investment-heavy colour in the game. You're putting a lot of cards (mana accel, etc) into getting this big creature into play, and if he dies, then it feels like a bit of a waste. That's why cards like Greater Good are so...well....good....and I'm glad that thing came back to 9th ed. Heck, I knew I needed that card, and when people were offering it for 1 buck, I declined, thinking I could get a better deal. Well, now it's worth a heck of a lot more, and I sure wish I got it while it was cheap.

I guess I feel kinda down because the only card advantage I can think of having as green is with that one card- Greater Good, and nothing else really comes to mind right now. I guess Penumbra Wurm is good, too, but the 7 CC is quite high. While affordable, I can only run so many 7 cc creatures in my deck, and I think I'd draw the limit at 4. I'd like most of my deck to be 5 - 6 cc creatures.

That got me thinking about other green critters. In specific, creatures that let you fetch more creatures, and creatures that give you cards.

It'd be cute to base a deck with the following cards:
Multani's Acolyte
Striped Bears
Kavu Climber

I really like WOTC for putting Kavu Climber into 9th. It's a very nice medium creature at 3/3, and it replaces itself....getting it out on your third turn isn't too shabby. I wish there were more cards like the ones listed above, because then I'd make a whole deck with creatures that aren't worth their casting cost, but it'll rely on overwhelming the enemy with an endless tide of creatures since you keep on drawing cards whenever you cast one :D.

Now, obviously a 5-mana 4/4 that gives you a card when it comes into play would be too powerful, but I wish that something like Silverback Ape would see a reprint. As it is, I don't feel that Green's creatures' fatness compensates their vulnerability to control. And the problem is that, every other colour has more control than green :P. As I have mentioned before, Green DOES have answers to control, but they are few and far between. And since those few counters to control are a MUST HAVE in order to hold your own, the prices for those cards goes up really high. Nobody else wants other cards because they're simply not worth getting....there are a ton of green creatures out there that I wouldn't play with simply because there is something out there that gives me more for the same mana cost. I suppose it's like that with other colours too, though.

I don't understand how Craw Wurm AND Ancient Silverback can both be in 9th Ed :P. There's absolutely no reason to run Craw Wurm when you could have Ancient Silverbacks :P. Rootbreaker Wurm? What For? I have GLEANCRAWLER! It has a nifty ability AND I can use it in a black deck, if I wanted to. If I were designing the set, I'd put stuff like Fangren Hunter, Silverback Ape, and Giant Warthog in. THAT'S what green's really all about :P. And personally, I'm suprised it wasn't until Mirrodin that a 5-mana 4/4 trampler creature for green was made.

When I first saw Trained Armodon in Tempest, I was like: "WOW! 3-mana for a 3/3!" However, I now feel that such things are to be expected. I'd love to see more Silverback Apes :). I personally would love to own a playset of them....or maybe 2. One to play with, and one to just keep :D.

And now I've completely lost track of my original point, and made a bunch of really confusing statements, bah :P. But it took a lot of effort to write so I'm going to post it......wheeeeee! Maybe someone who actually reads it can make sense of it :P.

EDIT: Aaaaah, what am I saying....green is fine :P. Just......need......Greater.......Good and some Priveleged Positions......but that takes up valuable card slots.....I'm Green! I can't draw cards! Aaaaaaah!

Twinkee
01-08-2006, 02:58 PM
errr? Are you ranting off about green in t2 or in general? In t2 green is overpowererd really my friend.

You have access to Bop, lanowar, STE as the base accelerator. Without those three beauties, you wouldn't see a lot of these decks running a muck with 3 colors. Mono green itself isn't too bad either. Now you have access to solifuge when GP comes out.. etc etc. Plus an underated mouldervine cloak that people seem to forget about.

As for overall, what does beatdown mean to you? From the way you are talking about, it seems like you it's all about big creatures. But how about medium sized creatures for cheap cheap cost? Green is even more immensely good at it. Rogue elephant, Jungle lion, metenda lion, river boa, nimble mongoose, werebear, ravanous baloth, and troll ascetic. Not to mention enchant creatures like rancor.

Against Blue control, green and red's probably their biggest sting in their behind. Because either they deal with the immensely effecient cheap creatures that green has to offer, or retardedly fast creatures and burn. Ofcourse you are going to loose if you are just trying to drop giant beefies, that's the typical way new players like to get at the game. In the history of magic, when has accelling big creatures ever won you tournies? One, tooth and nail. Because the environment allows them to easily do so. Against blue you just keep on casting your cheap creatures spell and you should have upper advantage already. Blue control is especially weak against creatures, in a deck of 60, most blue decks won't have more than 10 counter spells. Sure the first 5-6 turns will be a pain, but then you are wasting their resources. Most counterspells are 2cc+. If you are dropping creatures at 1-2cc range, who will exhaust their mana resources first?

Against white control, you just can't over extend yourself if you are playing against a player that holds wog in their deck. You can't really stop a wrath. Look at it this way, beatdown decks aren't trying to gain card-advantage, that's control's philosophy. Beatdown/aggro deck's philosophy is mana-curve and creature effecientcy. Sure they can wrath on turn 3-4. But you can recover from it quickly with cheap effecient creatures.

If you really want card-advantage, I suppose you can always go for glimpse of nature. Green's never been good in draw, nor should it be. It's like complaining about how blue never gets big effecient creatures for cheap cost, that's not their area. Ofcourse, you can always think of card-advantage through your creatures. If you have a 4/4 creature in the game, and your opponent has a bunch of 2/2, 3/3's... would you have the preliminary card-advantage at that point because you are forcing his cards to be rendered useless under the presence of your creature? Even if they pump it, that means they have to trade 1-2 cards for your 4/4.

and for your creature draw selection, you can are missing yavimaya elder, wall of blossom, and wall of mulch.

Green's beatdown is fine. It has numorous effecient+big creatures that'll throw headache to a lot of decks. Most will probably be paying more than usual amount of mana into one card just to get rid of your creatures which you can replace easily with cheap creatures.

If you want draw, just splash blue or black for draw :P.
Twink

GRUNT
01-08-2006, 04:16 PM
Yeah, those are very good points, actually :P. I guess I'm just too used to playing with people with a billion counterspells in their deck :P.

And now that you mentioned it- you're right. Most Tourney decks DON'T have a lot of big stompy creatures. It's weird though, because I'm not new to Magic or anything, but I just love using really huge, stompy creatures as Green :P. To me, that's what Green's all about :D. I guess I'm trying to find some way to make playing them as viable a strategy as a flood of the cheaper creatures.


Originally posted by Mark Rosewater
Gruul wants to get the biggest thing out it can. Gruul doesn't so much win with its army of little guys as with the one big guy your opponent couldn't deal with.

Mmmmmmmmm :). I am sooo looking forward to Guildpact :). It's as though he read this rant and made that comment specifically to make me happy :P.

EDIT: Burning-Tree Shaman! Utter.....awesomeness......